XA Podcast 015 | From Inception To IPO: Culture, Economics And Timing W/ Hari Krishnan, CEO Of PropertyGuru

Have you ever wondered what it takes for a company to go public? How does the CEO prepare for the journey? What do investors look for? Find out directly from Hari Krishnan, CEO of recently-listed PropertyGuru about the steps and missteps they had on their journey to IPO

Discussion Topics: From Inception to IPO: Culture, Economics and Timing

• Expectations setting as the new CEO of PropertyGuru
• Reorienting culture to behave like a market leader
• Leadership hiring philosophy
• The hardest things to scale
• Reason for the IPO and the timing of it
• Thoughts on the current market conditions
• When one should start thinking about profitability and corporate structure
• The importance of strong unit economics

Transcript: From Inception to IPO: Culture, Economics and Timing

Belinda Ong: Thank you everyone for joining us today and welcome to XA Podcast. It is our honor to host Hari Krishna as our guest speaker for this month’s XA fireside chat. Hari is the Chief Executive Officer at the Property Guru Group, Asia’s leading property technology company, where he recently led a successful public listing on the New York Stock Exchange. Prior to Property Guru, Hari started upscale and led LinkedIn in the Asia Pacific region, as the Vice President, and Managing Director.

Apart from LinkedIn, Hari has successfully scaled operations in companies like Yahoo, Cisco, and Fox Interactive Media. We would also like to thank our interviewer Petrus Phoa for joining us today. Petrus is an XA member and the Group Chief Information Officer at GoJek Southeast Asia’s leading on-demand ride-hailing platform. Prior to joining GoJek, Petrus worked at Orion Governance, where he led business systems and operations at scale. How are you, Petrus? Thank you so much for joining us today. Without further ado, Petrus, the floor is yours.

Petrus Phoa: Thank you, Belinda. Thank you so much for the time today. Excited to actually have the chat with you. Look, we don’t have much time here. Let me just get down to business here. I have many, many questions, and let’s get to how many questions we have. So, Hari, your profile is amazing. I mean, such an accomplishment. So congratulations to you and so when you joined Property Guru six and a half years ago now, did you foresee or have always planned that you would take this company public one day?

Hari Krishnan: So, first of all, thank you for having me on this podcast. And glad to see many old friends on the call. Coming back to your question, I think no, I did not think this company would definitely go public or anything. I think, frankly, I’m just very open-minded about it. The founders are all friends. One of them was a business school classmate of mine, my wife and I had found our home on the platform. So I had a sort of consumer-level loyalty and a general sense of the value it was adding to the ecosystem, particularly in Singapore. And less of an understanding of what they were doing outside Singapore.

I think the broader sense just felt like another founding moment for the company. And I always feel successful technology businesses have multiple founding moments, not just the moment when they were incepted. But perhaps moments where they reinvent themselves. And that often involves the injection of new blood, new leadership, and new thinking. And I think when Steven Jonnie sort of welcomed me on board, along with the investors, I think that goal was very much around resetting the culture, thinking about what is the vision, what are we going to build, rather than thinking about exit and elements like that. And I think that is something which I got right in the process, which was making sure that the investors in this case TPG, what their goals were.

Because I actually asked him point blank, do you want me to just build something that you can flip into yours because that’s not my skill set, there are lots of smart people in Singapore who can do that. I’m the kind of guy who likes to come in, build the culture, and build an organisation that’s going to thrive. I don’t know if that gels. So I think having that conversation before I signed made it clear. So I think IPO and all those things were very far away from my mind at that time.

Petrus Phoa: But here you are, you did your IPO. So congratulations, again. You know, scaling a company has never been easy, right? You think about people, you think about culture, you mentioned culture and then there’s the technology and processes, and the hiring, and so on. So can you just kind of walk us through your journey on scaling the company has to go through the hyper-growth stage, and so on hiring, there are multiple questions here on hiring what did you focus on most initially, and what was the culture that you envision creating? And how did you maintain that culture as you go from 5 people or 10 people to now like 1000 people and so on? And so let’s start with that first. I have some follow-up questions on this.

Hari Krishnan: Sure. I think one of the things that appealed to me intellectually with Property Guru was the fact that they had already built a successful company. It wasn’t a start-up, it was already a market leader, and that already existed for seven, eight years by the time I came along. And yet, its growth rate has started to level off. And so there’s more of reinventing a culture rather than creating one. So LinkedIn, when I came in, was actually a younger company and a smaller company than Property Guru. So, I was part of actually building that culture from the ground up.

Here there was a culture and so I had to figure out okay, what is that culture and how do we evolve that? And I think part of it was making sure anyhow this is the old cliché. I mean, if you work for companies or have worked for companies that talk about this, but we focused on the talent, I mean, what’s the leadership look like, do they have a common sense of mission? I’m a big believer in missionaries, rather than mercenaries.

So, people who are fighting for the purpose rather than the pay cheque, there’s always someone who can pay more than you. So the question becomes more, are they going to quit as soon as someone gives them an offer? Or are they going to focus more on the purpose of the business? And one of the statements I made at the Townhall when I took over from Steven Jonnie, was I said, Listen, you used to work for the founders. And founders tend to have an outsized personality as they should, by the way, that’s what makes them unique in the business community. But you’re not going to go from working for Steve to working for Hari, you got to go from working for Steve to working for the purpose. I work for that purpose too. I’m the captain of this team. But we all work for that purpose.

And so I saw my job is very much being really clear about the vision and the mission, and then repeating that ad nauseam. So I’ve been repeating it every quarter for the last six and a half years now. And it actually takes years, it took our culture, I thought it took two years, it took the better part of three, to shift it. I think it was a mentality around growth, mentality of confidence, you are a market leader you have to behave like a market leader, don’t be threatened by startups. But at the same time, give them respect.

So how do you focus on your customer, how do you have this culture of humility mixed with confidence I think that’s that sweet spot. So you don’t get arrogant, but at the same time, you don’t sell yourself short. And I think there are a lot of companies, particularly in Asia, with Asian bias towards humanity, I think they take it too far. And I think actually, ironically, even though PG is not started by people from Asia, sort of deeply self-doubting culture when I came in, we were threatened by startups in every country we operated in, and we thought they are better than us, but objectively, they were far behind us in terms of market share, in terms of customer share, in terms of everything. And so that’s a mentality switch that needs to start from the top and that was my job.

Petrus Phoa: Got it. And what about hiring, Hari? I mean, as you were trying to scale the company and you’re growing the company, what is your focus on hiring?

Hari Krishnan: So I think a couple of things, I think one thing I talk very often about is scar tissue. So I look for experience. So people who had tasted success, people who had failed so they are not going to be scared of failure. So I wanted a good sense of how you react when you get punched in the face and how many times have you experienced that. You can say you’re ready for it until you’ve experienced it and there’s nothing quite like it. I remember when I failed the first time and it comes typically when you’re not prepared.

So it is typically quite shocking. And any human being will take a while to react. But then how do you bounce back? I think that’s one thing I really focused on. The second thing was very much about me. So as a CEO, I was very much looking for people who complimented my skill sets. My natural preference is extreme risk-taking, and pushing the boundaries as far as I could go. And so I think what I was trying to make sure was we had enough people who were cheques and balances to me. So people who had mutual trust and respect, who had a different personality bias. So it wasn’t just that I was hiring for a function, so CFO or CTO level.

But also I was definitely hiring for personality type. So my definition of diversity is not as simple as just gender. And I think with Property Guru, we’ve been blessed with racial and other diversity well, before I came in, so I can take no credit there. So I think it was much more around diversity of thought, that we have people who think in different ways who have different experiences and who can be cheques and balances to me because the more of those people we got, the more aggressive I got in terms of my ambition, and being able to lean into who I am.

I often joke with our CFO, I said, my analogy is I jump off the cliff. And we have enough trust that I’m not even checking whether you have tied the rope to my ankles, right, and I’m not even kidding. And the last couple of years, that’s how this team has operated. And I’m not even checking, we’re making huge bets. But it takes a while to build that trust, we don’t take the big bets right off the bat, but I was solving for that diversity and diversity versus me as a starting point. And then diverse versus each other as we sort of build out the team.

Petrus Phoa: I love that leader I think about diversity from early on. So of all this you have technology also you need to scale, you have the processes that you need to scale of all these things that you have to scale what was the most challenging one to scale and I’m sure that many people here say what is it maybe this is something that you could also you know, some lessons learned from that area?

Hari Krishnan: I think people’s hardest thing to scale. Sorry, I should say leadership, the leadership to scale I don’t mean the number of people. I think it’s one of those classic ones where there are a lot of people who can go from 0 to 10 or 10 to 100, or 100 to 1000 there are very few who can do multiple of those. And I think it often falls on leadership to make those calls quickly. Do you have the right person, do you not? I always say make decisions ruthlessly and then communicate them with compassion, companies get it the wrong way around.

So you have to make the decision hard and quick, and then how you treat the person is with compassion. That’s where humanity comes in. So I don’t believe in firing. There are a lot of companies and some of you work for those companies, so I’ve debated with you. I actually don’t agree with that culture. I don’t think that’s how you build a particularly good culture in my opinion, of course. But I think, in my experience, the companies that get it right, actually make the decision very, very quickly. And then spend more time thinking about how you treat the person now that you’ve decided to part ways with them.

Obviously, I’m talking about negative decisions that are harder to communicate. And I think the piece of advice I got from Reed Hoffman before I joined the company, was he said, the difference between a pure-play entrepreneur and an entrepreneurial leader is an entrepreneur sees every problem as something for them to solve. And so as you grow a company, you’re gonna have more and more problems, particularly if you are successful, you actually get more problems.

That’s your reward. And the difference between an entrepreneur and an entrepreneurial leader, as he defined it, was that entrepreneurial leaders know how to solve the problem. But they also know how to hire people to solve the problem. And they know how to hire the people who can hire the people to solve the problem, so they can scale. And I think that sort of stayed with me from day one, that was advice I got before I started off with the company. And so we definitely focused on people who knew how to lead leaders. And very often they were hired well before the organisation needed it.

When I came in the company was generating around 25 or 30 million dollars in revenue, it didn’t need massive leadership, frankly, at that point. But we had complexity, geo complexity, and product complexity, which was significantly higher than the revenue would indicate. So you need maturity to be able to figure out first of all, what do we shut down? A lot of what I did in the first year was just shutting things down. And all our growth came from just, I think shut down 80% of the initiatives that were at PG before I came in, in year one, we shipped no new products, no new pricing.

Actually, we were a phenomenal product, and we shipped no new features in the first year, it is the first company I’ve ever worked for that did not succeed in shipping, a single feature in the first year that was there, and yet, we took our revenue growth rate from 8%, the previous year to 27% in year one. And so the board said, Okay, what did you do? Because it’s not evident from any time you’re not shipping anything, no new countries, and you haven’t bought anything. And I said we just stopped doing stuff. No one lost their job. We just refocus them on something. And I had no idea I was just placing bets because there’s no data as well.

So I just have completely subjective opinions, this is all cliche. If you have data, let’s look at the data. If you’re going with opinions, let’s go with mine. And that’s essentially what I told the team. I said I’m the ranking officer at all times. So if you want to correct me, bring the data otherwise, it’s my call. That’s it. And I think it’s easier to say that. And when I started making the calls and projects started shut down the data started getting found suddenly, so I think it was an important cultural shift for the company.

Petrus Phoa: Thank you for that Hari, this was very insightful. Let’s switch gears a little bit now to your IPO journey. So as you go through these scaling and then growth happens. And when did you decide Well, this is the right time now to go for the IPO. And what were some of these indicators, or metrics that gave you this final confirmation Hey, this is the right time.

Hari Krishnan: So I think first of all, I’d say to anyone on this call and to companies you’re investing in, I’m not clear that every company should go public. I think public markets are fundamentally broken. And I’m very clear about this and its very hard incentives are very strange, that’s the polite way of putting it. And so I think for me, it was more the result of the kind of investors we had built and recruited in some of them preceding me coming in and it’s full credit.

Steve built a business when there was no exit, there were no VCs, and there was no nothing. So you looked at our cap table it was the strangest looking cap table I’d ever seen. But they started in 2007. Like I love to say PG existed before the iPhone. So when you’re building in that you raise money where you raise money. You don’t have an elegant Launchpad, there are no angels, there are no accelerators, there are no incubators, there’s no nothing.

Now in that ecosystem when you build it out in your particular cap table, you then need to give them returns. And when I came in, and I started looking at it, there were basically two outcomes: trade sale or IPO. Trade sales for companies like us are in a particular vertical in Tech where there are no global majors. The biggest company in China does not exist outside China, the biggest company in the US does not exist in Canada, the biggest company in Australia does not exist in New Zealand, and they’re not even able to go to logically adjacent countries.

So it was a unique problem set and so we are part of maybe two companies that have done it successfully as a multimarket. Scout 24 is in the dark region of Europe, and with humanity I would say PG in Southeast Asia, are the only companies that have successfully scaled in. There are other people trying it in the Middle East, etc. but they are smaller. So we’ll see, maybe they’ll also get there.

And so I think it’s very much around first of all, do you need to go IPO? And it became pretty clear at some point that trade sales are going to be hard. We did cultivate and continue to cultivate opportunities there. But then I think the IPO part also became one where it created multiple options for us where it divorced, the outcomes for the investor from the vision for the company. What I mean by that is if the investor wants to exit at some point, if they start forcing that your entire strategy is going to go in that direction.

So I needed something that divorced the two. And so by going public now, even though TPG and KKR, are very clear, they don’t want to sell down at some point they will because they are financial investors, but now I’ve given them outcomes where they can either exit fully or do block sales. There’s no dispute and valuation because I’m a listed scrip. And even if it’s a trade sale, again, there’s no dispute on the valuation, you know what the value is.

So now, it’s just how much of a premium you want to pay to take us private. So I think that solved a lot of problems and allowed my management team to continue to focus on building the business towards the purpose rather than thinking about, okay, TPG wants this or KKR wants this or a new investor wants that. And I think that’s a problem a lot of entrepreneurs end up with and if you have one really large investor, in the end, you can say vision and purpose and all that they are setting the tempo, if you don’t create exit pathways for them.

Petrus Phoa: Wow. Thank you for that, Hari again, very, very insightful. You mentioned we have decided this is the time and you have to decide whether you want to direct the list or you want to go through the very hard. So why did you decide to go directly listing to the new stock exchange? And also, now that you have been public for a while now and what are your thoughts on the current market condition both globally, and regionally here in Southeast Asia?

Hari Krishnan: I’m just glad we got it done. That’s what I got to say. I’m glad I got money on the balance sheet. I got money on the balance sheet and I can smile. That’s the way I look at it. But I think it’s pretty open. Led by me we tried to take the company public in 2019, regular listing on the ASX, did a lot of things right, got recruited to the board, did a lot of cleaning up of structure and tax, two things that no entrepreneur ever thinks about. We went super deep fixing Vietnam and Indonesia, the two most problematic markets in which we operate from the outsider’s perspective.

In that sense, exciting markets, but from a tax and structure perspective, carry a lot of risks. And so we’ve cleaned up a lot of that, but then by the time we got to that finishing line, the Australian market had basically become a bloodbath. And so our board said, Listen, we don’t really need the capital, we’re going to pull the plug, incredibly deflating experience, because you’ve spent basically the whole year on a plane flying all over the world, trying to convince billion people to put money into you with ridiculously low conversion rates, like pretty much every other company and then your board decides, I mean, I was part of it, but it was still it was not a great feeling.

But I think so we came into 2020. And we were just focused on building the business. But I think what is gratifying is that despite the CFO and I being gone trying to list the business, 2019 was a record year for PG, it was the highest profitability and the highest revenue, and that probably we built the right team, they didn’t need me or the CFO to actually put runs on the board.

And so by 2020, we had focused on just growing the business COVID smacked us in the face, unlike ecommerce and Zoom etc. Proptech COVID is an absolute headwind, it is a negative consequence. And the only benefit of it was every single one of our competitors was lost making. So they got absolutely crushed. And so our job was much more around how to navigate through that. And we came into 2021 we were fine. And I think to your question, frankly, the spec was just floating in the ether.

Every bank was coming, calling Joe and me and trying to get our time and we took the calls out of curiosity, but finding Bridgetown actually came to us through a warm introduction from another large investor who we had met as part of the 2019 IPO process. And they said, Listen, if you’re thinking about Southeast Asia, you have to talk to Property Guru. So it was a warm introduction from someone we both respected. And then we got to know the Pacific Century and TL capital, and we really liked what they did. And I think the lesson from 2019 is you need as many partners as possible to share your story, you may have a remarkable story, but you need a lot of cheerleaders going, we are TPG and KKR, two really phenomenal investors. And we still didn’t get it done in 2019.

So in 2021, we just unloaded the tank, and every single investor was required to go out and do press on our behalf, to go out and talk about us as we the coolest thing ever leaving absolutely nothing to chance. And because of that, we somehow cross the finishing line. So I have no doubt in my mind, it is a lot of effort from a lot of people. It’s fine. I think it was the right thing for Property Guru. I’m not clear that if I started a company tomorrow, I don’t know if I’m architected to go public.

Petrus Phoa: And what are your thoughts about the current market condition here, right now Hari?

Hari Krishnan: I think it was a correction that needed to happen. I think the market valuations are ridiculous. I’m saying that as someone in the tech sector, like most companies, they do not deserve the valuations they are caring for, there has to be some semblance of operational profitability. Now you can say, in fact, a bit of a joke for many of us, I actually can subscribe to that and I agree with that.

But you have to understand EBITDA, there has to be a concept of trying to say that you are going to earn more than you spend, particularly for the companies that have been 10, 15, you’re talking series G, Series H, when we put alphabet I didn’t think we thought we’d go that far down. So it started getting a bit ludicrous that your company’s 15 or 20 years and still private, which are decacorn, or whatever the term is now, that sort of tells you public markets are once slightly broken, but also the private markets are that lucrative from an entrepreneur’s perspective, I can just keep selling forever because you’re willing to give me whatever valuation I ask for.

So I think there was a correction that was due. But I think no one’s taught this, right? I mean, this is a bit like you have a war, you have a pandemic, and you have an interest rate all coming together. Though, having said that, I have friends who claim that connection should be even more, and more may come. So it’s really tough market conditions. There are no two ways about it. But I think there’s a big separation between the companies that actually are showing their profitability and others. So you’re seeing like, even as we’ve listed, our share price is down about 15-20% since we IPO, I mean, my personal portfolio is off by more than that. And I’m not unhappy with that, I think relatively speaking, we’re doing pretty well.

So I think that’s not good, right? When you’re gone IPO, you are two months out, and you’re celebrating being down 20%. It’s tough, it’s very, very tough. But I think this is a world in which cash is king, you need cash on your balance sheet, you don’t have that you have nothing. So my advice to any entrepreneur is just to get funded, and raise money when you can from investors who can add value and our investors added a lot of value on our part to IPO.

Petrus Phoa: Yeah, definitely cash is king. That’s the mantra. So speaking of the pre-IPO, many of yours typically focus on let’s grow the top line, let’s go topline, and the expense of the total EBITDA. I think you mentioned EBITDA earlier. And typically post IPO you said many companies, then leaders will start thinking about what’s my P&L and look into the top and bottom line, and what’s my EBITDA.  You see that the focus changed from pre-IPO to post-IPO. And what’s your focus now, given the market condition?

Hari Krishnan: I don’t think you can go IPO without an EBITDA story. If you do, the consequences are dire. And there are lots of data cases, data points. Some from our part of the world, some from the US companies that got their IPO done in the frothy markets, even two years ago they got hammered as soon as they went out. And I think one of the biggest challenges I have given this advice recently to one of the larger VCs in Southeast Asia, I said, you guys need to do a better job getting companies ready to go public.

Because you’re focusing so much on the commercial stuff you’re not talking about tax, you’re not talking about structure. And all of this incurs cost why I’m talking about this is, this all kills your P&L, because if you’re building it as if you’re operating in a vacuum, I just have to focus on my cogs essentially, and my revenue, you’re not building a real company, who’s gonna pay for everything else, who’s gonna pay for all the lawyers and auditors and accountants? And I would definitely say many of those things are highly overpriced, but you don’t have a choice you play in the real world so you got to play by those rules.

So how does your P&L accommodate that? And I think a lot of VCs, potentially powerful angel syndicates, like yourself, start planting those seeds early. I don’t think an early company should think about it. Don’t get me wrong, but they should understand that at some point, the choices you make today in success could become a challenge for you.

We spend four or five months in 2019, cleaning up our structure in Indonesia and Vietnam, four or five months, there’s an argument to be made that if we hadn’t spent those four or five months, we would have probably gotten listed, the markets would not have been that by the time we got out. But it is what it is. I mean, it was necessary now I can say, to do, it would have been horrible to be a listed company and not have claimed that the consequences could have been even worse.

So I think that path to EBITDA is something that if you’re thinking of IPO, you have to already be on that path otherwise don’t bother trying that game. The fact that you keep pointing to the same company sort of tells you how exceptional that is. So don’t point to one company and talk about the other hundreds or 1000s of companies that have gone public.

So I think that’s the mentality I would encourage people to have. And it’s also a little harder to answer the question because honestly, we’ve gone public in a market where EBITDA is the most important thing. I’m still very focused entirely on growth; our revenue growth is still we’re projecting North of 40%. And we’re going to try and keep sticking to that.

So we want strong growth even at this point. But definitely, the parts for the business now, which have a balanced scorecard focus on profitability, operational profitability I think that’s very much part of it.

Petrus Phoa: Got it. Thank you. So I’m hearing like EBITDA and I’m sure there are things that you will advise some of these leaders right now, who are considering taking the companies public, what are some of those things Hari?

Hari Krishnan: I think, first of all, you got to make sure your unit economics work. I mean, it sounds like I’m saying something that’s obvious and I think we can all think of several companies that haven’t got it. So if you just absolutely have no concept of fixed costs, if every cost is variable, you have a real problem, and I don’t see how that business is going to be valued significantly. At some point, as I like to say, you got to pay the piper, you can pull the wool over the angel, maybe the VC, maybe the series B investor, even if you’re a good storyteller, at some point, somebody’s going to look at your Excel sheet, and not your PowerPoint. And at that point, you’re done.

So you got to be able to get unit economics figured out pretty early. And then you gotta start thinking about what are all the additional costs you have to bear if you decide to go public, and I can’t stress enough, it was the absolute right thing for PG. I don’t think it is the right thing for every company out there. And if you are, there’s a lot of costs, and I’m talking millions, if you decide to go to US 10s of millions of dollars of additional stuff that’s gonna show up on your P&L, and you’ve got to be able to handle that. And it is quite scary.

When you start seeing that it’s very real and yet you have to bear that to your D&O insurance, just insurance for directors and officers is millions of dollars a year, something we didn’t have to do in the past. But now you’re gonna get sued for everything, you get sued. So you will need that cover. It’s not something you think about. When you are building your business, do not think about getting sued for frivolous stuff, but you are now if you’re a public company, so you need to think it through and understand you don’t operate in a vacuum. Your investors may say you’re super sexy, go talk to a public market investor and I suspect they’re gonna test you on something very different.

Petrus Phoa: Yes, that’s absolutely right. The last question here Hari, how do you celebrate this monumental event, how do you celebrate with your team and how do you celebrate with your family, what did you do?

Hari Krishnan: Well, my family was down with COVID until two days before I got on that plane. So it was pretty damn close to me not getting on the plane to New York, which I mean, I would not have made this call. I guarantee you that I would have been in a different mindset. But no, I think we really celebrated and we went hard. We were in New York, it just opened up so we were able to do a proper listing.

The US stock exchange is really not a throw party, it makes you feel special. I don’t think PG ever felt better. The one anecdote I share from there has nothing to do with us. We were standing outside the stock exchange and I think I shared this with Tony. And we looked across the road and there was this couple who were excitedly taking photos of each other mother and son. And then our banker comes over and says it’s a couple from Singapore. They were here on holiday.

They just happened to turn the corner, saw the New York Stock Exchange, saw the Singaporean brand up there got excited. So I was live streaming with some family I don’t know from New York because they were just so excited to see a Singaporean company listing over there. That was the best moment as a leader, that’s the greatest feeling in the world and when you’re not talking to someone you know and they are celebrating but celebrations are there absolutely after parties, which cannot be divulged over here. But it was a really good celebration.

Petrus Phoa: Thank you so much, Hari. I mean, it’s such a great pleasure talking to you. And really again, congratulations. And with that, I want to turn it back to Belinda. So thank you.

Hari Krishnan: Thanks, Petrus.

Our Guest: Hari Krishnan

Hari Krishnan is the Chief Executive Officer at the Property Guru Group, Asia’s leading property technology company, where he recently led a successful public listing on the New York Stock Exchange. Prior to Property Guru, Hari led LinkedIn in the Asia Pacific region, as the Vice President, and Managing Director. Apart from LinkedIn, Hari has successfully scaled operations in companies like Yahoo, Cisco, and Fox Interactive Media. 

He is interviewed by Petrus Phoa, an XA member and the Group Chief Information Officer at GoJek, Southeast Asia’s leading on-demand ride-hailing service platform. Prior to joining GoJek, Petrus worked at Orion Governance, where he led business systems and operations.