AV3 | Expanding Regionally – Hire Local And Trust The Team

POPS Worldwide is one of the few Vietnamese companies to successfully expand regionally in SEA. In this conversation, Esther dives into the crucial aspects of trust, attitude, and personal qualities and how she grew the company from a 4 person team in Vietnam to a 400 person team across 3 different countries. She reflects on finding, motivating and retaining leaders for the long term as a regional company in a highly competitive hiring market.

Discussion Topics: Expanding Regionally – Hire Local and Trust the Team

• Building the core team
• How early employees helped shape values
• What to look for when hiring early employees
• How POPS expanded to hundreds of employees across South East Asia
• How to motivate and retain people for the long term
• Why join POPS
• How to make best use foreign talent

Transcript: Expanding Regionally – Hire Local and Trust the Team

Adrian Latortue: So welcome back to AVV founders and friends podcast season one, where we are sitting down with successful founders in Vietnam in Southeast Asia to get a behind the scenes look at the first hires of an early team for their companies. And today we are here with special guest Esther Nguyen, Founder and CEO of Pops Worldwide. POPS Worldwide is the leading digital entertainment company in Southeast Asia serving over 523 million subscribers with a diverse content library ranging from music, general entertainment, kid’s edutainment, and more from the very best content creators in the region. For those who don’t know, POPS, when they first started, they actually established Vietnam’s copyrighted entertainment industry, an era where bootleg CDs and line was st`ill around. So they are operating in Vietnam, Thailand, Singapore, Indonesia, and the Philippines. So thank you so much for joining us today Esther, you and the Pops Worldwide team have accomplished so much in the last 14 years. And we are excited to hear about the people behind the company that made it possible. So let’s start.

Esther Nguyen: Well, thank you for having me on the show. It’s very exciting. It is my first podcast. So very excited to be here and share my history and our journey.

Adrian Latortue: Awesome. It’s also our first podcast. So we’re really excited to have you today. And thank you again. All right. So your regional company now, but we’re gonna go all the way back to the very, very beginning, 14 years ago, when you first started POPS, who were your first three hires?

Esther Nguyen: So I had to think really hard because it was so long ago, to be honest. So I had to rewind, and I would say the very first hire was her name was Catherine. And actually, because Pops is ideation and everything actually started in Silicon Valley, where I was living and where I’m from. And so Catherine, I’ve known since we were kids, actually, she’s my best friend’s older sister. And we’re just having drinks and I told her what it is that I was doing and wanted to do and she was finishing up her MBA. And I said, I’m creating and moving to Vietnam to start the Spotify of Vietnam you know, social music, discovery, all of that. And she said, I want to come. I said, What? So I thought she was kidding. You know, we had too many drinks at the time so I wasn’t sure if she was serious. But no, she was actually serious, and I moved, and she moved, she moved to Vietnam with me. And to be honest, it was really great and comforting to have a friend, but also someone who was really down to get into the deep of it. And because back in 2007, it was really the wild, wild West, coming back and trying to figure things out, the whole entrepreneur ecosystem wasn’t in place, there were no entrepreneur or networking events, or co-working spaces or things like that. So it was really, you know, you’re out there all on your own, trying to figure things out.

So it was nice to have a sidekick. And from there, she introduced me to Hung, Hung was our first local hire. And she has been with me till now. I mean, she’s moved to Canada, in the past year, but she’s always been with POPS. I’ve seen her grow from just being our second hire to really successful. I mean, she became our COO, she became just a really important part of the culture, the spirit, the soul of the company. So it’s been great to have her. She came from a nonprofit actually. So she had no business or no information, no experience in entertainment in terms of building a company, nothing but what she did have was heart. She had faith and what I was building even when sometimes I didn’t know what I was doing she was always there to challenge me and to remind me that we are in Vietnam, and she always had the can-do attitude. So I think that was really important for us to have at that time. And then let me see, the third one, I would say would be Doom, who is still with us, after 14 years, still with us, and it’s been amazing for me to see him grow from just an Engineer to a very key person in the organisation who handles all of our over a million hours of content across multiple different platforms. He is the gatekeeper; he is the ops guy. And to watch him grow as an individual has been really amazing. So, those are my three people I had to dig hard for those

Adrian Latortue: So thinking back, yep, 2007 in Vietnam was a very different time, I think it was very hard to recruit, and especially look for people who had that kind of international vision. So maybe you didn’t have to convince your friend to join you it sounds like she was already ready to join you. But what were those early conversations with Hung like?

Esther Nguyen: For me in the initial days, when we had this picture that in on our very first meeting, and I said, let’s do it, and she said I have no experience. I said, “ Okay, you have a really good attitude. But initially, for me to convince her and say, you know, I tried to win her over with stock options. And she was like, what is that? You know, they just didn’t understand what that means and what that meant, what kind of value that had, and so, which is very different today, you know, we’d be talking about stock options now to employees, they’re like, Wow, yes, definitely. So back then, it wasn’t about the stock options that allured her to join, but the vision in terms of what we were building, what we wanted to do, and I don’t think I would have been able to do what we did without her, to be honest. And I think she knew that I really trusted her and needed her to be my sidekick, I guess.

Adrian Latortue: Yes, something you mentioned that was really interesting was this idea that, she challenged you, she would constantly be reminding you that you’re in Vietnam and she came with a lot of heart, right? So she saw this vision, and she committed, not just on a day to day basis, in terms of these are the tasks I’m doing, but really to kind of the emotional rollercoaster that being part of an early team can be. So I’m wondering, when you first met Hang, in your first conversations, were you able to identify all those kinds of traits? Or did they slowly reveal themselves while you started to work together?

Esther Nguyen: I knew that it was there, from the very beginning, but to what depth and what extent really showed over time, you know, when we didn’t have any money, or when we hit a roadblock, or for example, when we didn’t have any money, and her and I talked to the managers, and they all decided to take no salary for three or four months until we can get back on our feet. And it was led by her heart and my vision. When it was heard that said, Esther, we really need core values. Like, I remember that in business school, and I’m like, Oh, that’s so much fluff. I’m like, do we really need it? Yes, we really need it. Okay, you do it. So, and you tell me what it is. And she’s like, well, what’s important for you, and she was able to pull all of this emotional side out of me and put it into a framework where today though, that framework still exists and is a guiding post to the Pops culture. So she was instrumental at balancing me and pushing me to do the things that I didn’t think was important, but really was important.

Adrian Latortue: Yeah, something that founders don’t always talk about is that idea of being able to balance, the lead founder or the CEO, something you’ve brought with Hang, and I’m wondering, the other two hires were your friend and then you also have a Jim who’s the Engineer, who was your second local hire. Then how did they balance you? What did you see in them that you said, Hey, these are going to be great people to continue that first part of the early journey?

Esther Nguyen: Catherine and Doom are very different in the sense that Catherine reminded me, hey, you need to have a life outside of the company to balance you, and you don’t go crazy. So, she would make sure that I would go and have a drink later after work or to make sure that I don’t completely die of working so hard. So she did remind me of that balance. With Doom, he was just a solid guy, you know, didn’t waver like wasn’t emotional, it was great, this is what you need done we’ll get it done kind of thing. And so he was just this stable force, and continues to be the stable force in the organisation. So it’s great to have back then and it’s also great to have it today. And it’s rare to have, I think, someone to follow you from the beginning of the journey all the way to now.

Adrian Latortue: Yeah, that sounds wonderful. I think you’re quite lucky to be able to find these really strong leaders in the company, like at such an early stage. And I know a lot of founders struggle with that. One more question and kind of on this, with all these characteristics for Catherine, Hang and Doom, when you first were looking for your hires, did you have an idea like say, Hey, I’m looking for these qualities and this level of knowledge, and if you did, how did that change as you started having these conversations?

Esther Nguyen: To be honest, at the very beginning, for me, what was more important, yes, of course, the knowledge or expertise as a finance person, or as an Engineer, that was important, but what really trumps that is the entrepreneur spirit, the hustle, that we can get through anything, and to try something that no one else is trying and not to do, follow what everyone else is doing. So those kind of characteristics were very important to the survival and to the growth of the company, and it still is, you know, we’re still hustling, I feel like, I still felt even though we’re, quote, unquote, a teenager, I still feel like, we’re still young, and there’s still a lot to do. We’re still reinventing ourselves, as always, as a digital company. So that hustle on that entrepreneur spirit and still needs to be here. So what I look for, then still exists today. And if not even more, so because having a heart having that, you know, the core values that match what Hang did at the very beginning, is very important. Because if you don’t have that, it can really interrupt the whole organisation that you’ve built, and so it doesn’t change, actually, and if you’re able to build that framework at the beginning and keep it, it helps the organisation grow and keep that culture.

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Adrian Latortue: I mean, it sounds like that, you had a pretty formidable culture at the very beginning, you talked about entrepreneurship, mindset, hustle, being able to challenge each other and balance each other out. And I’ll point out that for the audience is that none of these are related to, like, particular skill sets, like, oh, this person can pitch to an investor, or they can create financial models, or they can build an MVP on their own in two weeks, full stack developers, nothing like that. These are truly kind of interpersonal skills, and they’re things that reflect more on the character of the people that you brought on.

Esther Nguyen: That’s right, because I’ve made the mistakes I’ve hired, in the sense where I found people who have really great expertise, great history, who’ve worked for some really great companies. But when they came in and they couldn’t fit in the Pops culture, they couldn’t keep up with the Pops speed. They couldn’t communicate with everyone. Then that expertise doesn’t really mean anything. So, at the end of the day, it’s just about the chemistry of people working together teamwork, because we can always find expertise, but you can’t always find a good heart and good attitude.

Hau Ly: Yeah, but all these things like, the entrepreneurial spirit, the hustle, good heart, good attitude, how did you screen for these things when you talk to these first few candidates? Because I assume, you cannot ask them. Hey, do you have a good attitude? So how did you gauge that when you talk to them?

Esther Nguyen: You know, sometimes you’re wrong, sometimes you’re right. I think it’s all about the gut and the chemistry that you feel with the person when you first meet them. It’s hard, you don’t get it right all the time and you think you got it right but you didn’t. So it’s tough, I wouldn’t say that I’m always accurate. But especially if it’s a senior hire, or someone who I’ll be working with, I like to have a number of conversations with them inside the office, outside the office, I like to find out who they worked with before, I do a little bit about background check, have a drink, things like that. I know, there’s a lot of alcohol, and all of this, but really just to see them outside of the office and just to get to know them as a person is really important, especially at the key hires. But I’ve been wrong, but that’s okay, it’s part of the journey to be wrong. Just make sure that you find out quickly, so that you know that person or that set of people don’t ruin or tarnish the culture that you’ve built.

Adrian Latortue: All right. So that’s the early team, those were the early days. Fast forward to today, you are a regional company, with how many employees across the region?

Esther Nguyen: 400.

Adrian Latortue: 400 employees! That’s a large company, I think a lot of founders dream of getting to that size. It’s a common comment, they say a lot of companies that start in a particular country, and especially in Southeast Asia, regardless of what country it is, they often don’t really get to that regional size. And there’s a few examples in Singapore, in Indonesia, and now Vietnam, that where companies have been able to expand. So you’re one of the few that really have been able to do it, especially at this scale, and you’re still going. Tell us a little bit about the team there and how that got started.

Esther Nguyen: So it was very interesting, you know, we’re debating between the Philippines or Indonesia, but we decided on Indonesia. And not only did we decide on Indonesia, but it was during the peak of COVID that we decided to enter Indonesia. And it was a bold move, but it was a really good move on our end in the sense that we were lucky or just knew what we were looking for in terms of leadership. We knew that we wanted someone who had experience in the entertainment field, but also who had an entrepreneur drive. And so it was like finding a needle in a haystack, but we found it, we were very lucky on our first try. Actually, Zico is really amazing. And what makes him amazing is that he has this, you know, we’re the newcomers, we are the underdog, but we are not afraid to tackle anyone and everyone and really go after the industry. So, first again, so it’s the attitude, from Zico, and this feeling of can do and with a big heart. And from there, it was really seamless, to help him grow the business, and watch him grow as a leader. And it’s been amazing to see him grow from, you know, one person to 10 to 10 to 50 now, and it’s quite exciting. So when I do go to Indonesia, and I get to see the team, there’s so much spirit, and there’s so much energy from the team. They’re all jam packed, sitting like, you know, crammed together, and now we’re moving you know, getting ready to move into a real office. So it’s very exciting to see that team grow in the spirit and the Pops culture, being able to translate and transfer from not just here in Vietnam, but also to Indonesia. And they really hold the core values that I built or hand built back in 14 years ago.

Hau Ly: That’s awesome to hear Esther. So it sounds like the first hire that you made in Indonesia was very similar to the first hires that you made in Vietnam in terms of attitude, in terms of values, but I’m really curious if you adapted your hiring strategy at all for the Indonesian market was there anything that you did differently compared to when you were setting up the team here in Vietnam?

Esther Nguyen: I would say that a little different we went a head-hunter, instead of friend of friend. But he was quite known in the industry, he had a great track record, he had a great reputation. I would say that the most challenging between all of our markets was Thailand, in terms of finding leadership. And I would say, we couldn’t find the right person, or they were not able to help us scale the business as quickly as we wanted to. But now, we have Bani, who has been with us and he’s grown the business overnight. And it’s been really exciting to see work with him because we are very similar and he’s all heart, he’s really a go-getter and I love that I can just say, Hey, this is what I need and he’s like, consider it done. You know, it’s really exciting to have that. And again, it’s his attitude. He just has a really great attitude that he’s not afraid to tackle the hard things. But also, he’s not afraid to say, Hey, sir, we need some help. And so I think, what ties all of the markets together that all of us as leaders, we don’t have egos. I think, if we did, then it wouldn’t work. We know when to talk to each other, or when to ask the questions, when to lean in, when to go in, and just do our stuff. There’s a lot of trust between all of us which is really important, since we’re not together every day.

Adrian Latortue: Okay, so you mentioned that Jim was your first engineer, he’s been with the company for 14 years, you’ve kept people for 12 and 14 years, that’s like better retention rate than like most banks, and people work at banks for a long time. So that’s really amazing.

Esther Nguyen: Sure, and I would say that, it makes me feel very proud to see them grow, and really blossom into their role and who they are, from when they were very young to the adults that they are now I’m very honest with everyone or I tried to be as much as I can, as honest and transparent. And it’s not always easy, because a lot of times, I just want to keep it inside, not burden them with all of the things that may or may not be happening. But that doesn’t help anybody if I keep it all to myself. So I tried to be as transparent. And so I think that alone helps to build the trust between the executives, and make us feel like we’re not all alone, that we are in it together. And transparency, communication, and trust is very important. And I think it’s just transferring this trust on to level after level after level, there is this great working relationship. And they knew that they can make an impact and showing that they’re doing that, and just keep motivating them, inspiring them to do better and do more, it really helped us get through the tough times. Also, one last point is accepting failure. It’s okay to fail and it’s okay if the team members fail, but as long as they’ve learned from it, because that’s part of growth, and if they are not scared to fail, then it also allows them to grow and they see that and that enables them to trust more, make a better impact too. The team feels like they can just say what they need to say with respect. You know, if they don’t agree with each other, or they’re on different page, and they need to get on the same page they’re good at arguing, they’re good at speaking their mind, but then they’re okay, at just leaving it at the table. No one takes it personally, no one takes it to heart and right after that we can all go and have drinks and have a meal and have some fun.  So I think again, it goes back to trust, trust of being able to communicate and share their thoughts because at the end of the day, we all have the best interests at heart, which is building a great company. We call ourselves the Avengers. So I think that’s what helps keep people in the organisation.

Hau Ly: It’s funny that you said you refer to yourself as Avengers. At AVV, we refer to ourselves as Ascendance because AVV ascendance ventures. So hopefully that will also build a sense of belonging, a sense of identity, something that our team members would be proud to refer to themselves as.

Adrian Latortue: Yeah, just to follow up on that, you know, all these markets from, let’s say, 10 years ago to now they’ve evolved a lot, and the hiring market has gotten really competitive. And it’s something that we hear founders talk about all the time, they can’t pay people enough, they can’t offer enough incentives. And it sounds like what you have it Pops is really a culture that has become a glue, but even so, money is money, right? Incentives are incentives. So If Hau and I were considering a new role today – we’re not, but if we were – how would you pitch us on joining POPS worldwide today?

Esther Nguyen: Definitely, we cannot pay as big as some of these other companies. But everyone needs a mission in life and so if that’s what you’re looking for, then Pops is definitely the company that you want to be with. If you want to make a difference, you want to have an impact, you want to grow economies, you want to try something new or be entrepreneurial, but also have a strong framework behind you, to enable you to grow or build something, then Pops is the company for you. But you gotta be ready for some fast-paced movement cuz we really do move fast. And if you’re up to the challenge with a lot of support joining a great team and having fun at it, then you know, pops is definitely the market, the place, the company for you. And you don’t wanna miss out. You don’t wanna look back and say, damn, I should have joined. Because at the end of the day you’re with, you know, the people at work more than you are at home, and so you need to be in an environment that you enjoy, and you have fun. 

Adrian Latortue: I have one final question, if you could go back in the past, is there anything that you do differently in identifying and hiring these first team members?

Esther Nguyen: I think it goes back to the core of Pops, which is I do strongly believe, and I can say this, because I’m a foreigner here in Vietnam, I do believe in local talent, especially us being a content company content is very local, so content for local market, local team for local market. And so whichever market that we are in, I do like to hire local, local team, local leadership. And so one of the things that I’m still trying to balance out is bringing in foreigners into local markets, it’s a double edged sword. This is great expertise, but can I come in and fit into the culture and lead and what we call transversal leadership, you know, being able to get every one of the peers to follow and to have faith and respect the things that you’re bringing to the table and not just because you’re a foreigner. I’m more cognizant of that, as we are growing, and expanding across the region, and within niche market.

Adrian Latortue: I love that. That’s such a valid point, emphasising local talent. And I think, you know, we think back to 2007, there was this notion, this idea that you always had to bring in foreigners, if you want to grow big, if you want people who are talented, who can manage, you could scale and slowly, that’s been proven wrong. That talent has existed in the market, it’s just that we didn’t necessarily know where to find it in the beginning. And then there’s another valid point about beyond to being able to bring in the right international talent that works well with the local talent, maybe it fills some gaps, but it really should amplify what the local talent is able to do for that market. So yeah, there’s a theme of being able to balance, right?

Esther Nguyen: Absolutely. So, I like the word that you use amplify and not disrupt. So yeah, absolutely.

Adrian Latortue: Thank you so much for sharing Esther. Really appreciate it. Again, this is AVV founders and friends podcast season one with Esther Nguyen, CEO and founder of Pops worldwide.

Esther Nguyen: Thank you. Had fun.

Our Guest: Esther Nguyen

Esther Nguyen is a media and technology entrepreneur who founded POPS Worldwide. She has since been a pioneering force in the development of the digital entertainment industry in Vietnam and Southeast Asia.