#91 It Is Time to See Asian Women as Global Leaders – Sheena Yap Chan’s Story

In today’s episode, I, Yana Fry, have the pleasure of hosting the remarkable Sheena Yap Chan. She takes us on a journey from her early struggles with self-acceptance to becoming a bestselling author and empowering Asian women globally. We discuss the challenges of criticism, the power of setting boundaries, and the significance of small daily actions. This episode reminds us that embracing our true selves and supporting one another can lead to great personal growth and societal change. Join us in this conversation as Sheena’s timeless teachings unfold!

Discussion Topics: It Is Time to See Asian Women as Global Leaders

• Introducing Sheena Yap Chan: Keynote speaker, podcaster, consultant, and author.
• Realization from Shared Struggles: Recognizing shared challenges for personal growth.
• Representing Asian Women: Creating a dedicated platform for Asian women.
• Inner Struggles Despite Podcast Success: Overcoming confidence issues as a podcast host.
• Who is a Leader: A leader walks beside you, shaping history together.
• Breaking Free from Approval: Escaping societal expectations for personal freedom.
• Online Hate’s Impact on Mental Health: Moving forward despite online challenges.
• Women’s Workplace Support: Fostering an abundance mindset among women.
• Tips for Confidence and Inner Peace: Set boundaries, take small daily steps, and surround yourself with positivity.
• Closing remarks

Transcript: It Is Time to See Asian Women as Global Leaders

Yana Fry: Welcome to Timeless Teachings today our guest is Sheena Yap Chan, who is joining us all the way from Toronto. Sheena is the World’s Thrill Journal bestselling author with her book, Tower of Self Confidence, which focuses on women’s empowerment and sharing stories of women from all over the world. So Sheena, thank you so much for joining us today.

Sheena Yap Chan: Hi, Yana. Thanks so much for having me today. It’s such an honour.

Yana Fry: You and I have known each other for a really long time because you also have a podcast for more than eight years already, which is also called Tower of Self Confidence and I remember that I was honoured to be one, I think, of the very first probably speakers and guests that you invited a very long time ago.

Sheena Yap Chan: Oh, wow.

Yana Fry: So then my first question would be, maybe let’s hit the podcast since that has been a long time. What perhaps one or two lessons that you learned as the podcaster in the last eight years, having conversations with all those women?

Sheena Yap Chan: I mean, that’s a great question. I think for me, it was just knowing that I wasn’t the only one who was feeling not good enough, feeling scared, feeling like I had to please everybody else before I pleased myself. Like, all the concerns, and the struggles I went through, I realised I wasn’t the only one.

In Asian culture, we’re not told to talk about how we feel, or what we go through. Mental health is still a huge taboo. And so being able to hear these women’s stories, just made it feel relatable and know that it’s part of the process.

We’re going to go through struggles and setbacks and knowing that we can come out of it is what really matters the most, especially coming from Asian women, because we’re seen as quiet, submissive and obedient. Nobody sees us as leaders, strong women and they’re amazing, phenomenal Asian women all over the world.

We’re doing amazing things. It’s just our stories that aren’t told. So, for me, representation is really important, especially growing up in Toronto. Growing up as a kid, there wasn’t a lot of media representation of Asian women, so I always felt ashamed of being Asian. I wanted to have blonde hair and blue eyes to feel more beautiful, to feel more accepted, and it wasn’t until my twenties that I really embraced Asian culture.

So, in the beginning, when I started my podcast, I was just interviewing. Women I know. So like women like you women from all cultures. And then I realised it really needed to create a platform just for Asian women because we didn’t have one out there. And so, I decided to do that. You said in your early 20s This is when you embraced being Asian. How did you do that?

Oh my gosh, so it was actually when I decided to dye my hair back from blonde to my original hair colour And it wasn’t really for a cultural reason. It was more of a financial reason. I mean, getting your hair dyed and retouching your roots is not cheap. And I was like I can’t be spending 80 just to retouch three inches of my hair.

Like I’m just gonna dye it back to my original hair colour and not have to deal with that and the moment I saw myself again with my original hair colour, I just looked in the mirror and was like, This is me who I really am. And that’s when I started embracing my true self, my culture, and so on.

So, I know it’s a funny reason, but sometimes we do certain things and it leads us to these epiphanies, these aha moments that make us move forward.

Yana Fry: I love this story. That’s so beautiful and also when you share about your work and the podcast you started at that time, in my eyes, again, since I have known you for so many years, I find you one of the pioneers. Who actually started this conversation right now I think especially after 2020 things like mental health and even women empowerment?

So how was the journey as a trailblazer? Because that’s what I see as a trailblazer in this particular sphere. When we talk about Asian women and how they show up in the world, what do you see has changed in the world?

Sheena Yap Chan: I mean, yeah, when I first started it was really tough because I was the only one who started a podcast and back then there weren’t a lot of Asian people podcasting. To even talk about these issues was kind of It’s uncommon because we’ve been told to not talk about what we go through, what we feel.

And because of that, we go through so much self confidence issues and mental health issues. it was definitely not perfect. Made a lot of mistakes. Didn’t know if I was doing it right. Didn’t even know if I had any belief in myself really.

Even though I had a podcast about self confidence, I was the least confident. But we go through these different journeys for a reason. And at the same time, I had to unlearn a lot of things in my own upbringing. To move forward. So it was a lot of inner work to be honest, being able to interview all these amazing women really helped me along the way, being able to hear their stories, women who’ve been bankrupt, who’ve been abused.

Who’ve gone to jail? I mean, like all kinds of different scenarios of setbacks and finding ways to overcome them to be the person that they are today. So, I mean, I’m really grateful. I was able to interview so many women over 800 episodes now, which has been crazy.

Yana Fry: I knew it was needed and it led me to all these different things, like being able to speak for different corporations, being on stage being able to write a book, Being signed by one of the top five publishers in the world. I mean, that is huge especially in the US or North America in general, because there’s still not a lot of representation of Asian women or just Asian people in general in the publishing industry.

Sheena Yap Chan: It’s very so I’m very grateful for that. I’m really grateful for that. The publisher took a chance on me, when they offered me this opportunity, I almost turned it down because I just didn’t feel like I was good enough. but I realised I had to do it, not just for me, but for every other woman out there who felt invisible, who felt underrepresented, especially for Asian women, because there’s just so many things that happened to us, especially in Asia.

Women are always second class to men. like in China, if you’re 25 and over and still single, like you’re literally called a leftover which is really unfortunate. And it still, like all these things still happens today. And it’s like, we need to talk about this.

We can find ways to solve it. So, especially with the book, it’s all about learning to move beyond your trauma because we’ve all gone through some form of trauma. Everyone’s going through something and if we don’t find ways to talk about it, to heal through it, we’re not going to show up as our best self. People don’t realise The traumas that we carry are sometimes not even our own traumas, but the traumas of our ancestors, our parents, our grandparents, we carry that and if we don’t walk through it or talk through it or be aware of it, it’s going to hold us back.

So, when it comes to leadership, people don’t realise we need a foundation. There are a lot of leadership books out there. And, there’s nothing wrong with that, but we need to work on our mindset. First, we need to figure out what is really stopping us because it’s like, I can show you different kinds of ways to build leadership, but if you’re in your heart still thinks you’re, you’re not a leader, then you’re not going to move forward.

Yana Fry: And when we talk about leadership and I think especially in the context of Asian women, so how would you describe to us, let’s say, what do you think is like the ideal characteristics of maybe a female Asian leader that you really need to foster?

Sheena Yap Chan: I think being a leader in general is learned. It’s just learning to break barriers and opening the doors for our community. It’s not about who’s 1st who’s walking in front. It’s about walking side by side, right? It’s about. Being able to make history, especially in North America, we’ve seen Asian women who’ve been able to become the first woman that’s a general manager in a major sports team.

That is huge, right? And it took a lot out of her to get to where she is today, going through so much rejection, microaggressions, the gender discrimination. Especially in the tech world, women get constantly discriminated against, they get left out in meetings or not treated fairly by their male coworkers.

And I’m not saying all male coworkers are like that, but there’s, there’s a good number, right? And so for me, it’s learning to just, like you mentioned, being that trailblazer, really being that first person to just dip into the unknown. And that’s not easy.

And if you’ve been conditioned to always have a stable paycheck, stable, a stable life the unexpected becomes very scary. So I think that to me is what a leader is. Someone who just breaks the barriers for everyone else so they can show you what’s possible.

Yana Fry: You also mentioned that in order to become who you are today and in order to do what you are doing today, you had to unlearn certain things, perhaps from your childhood to maybe family conditioning or culture. Like, what are we talking about here?

Sheena Yap Chan: Yeah, for sure, especially in Asian culture, when it comes to our parents, the number one rule is to always honour your parents, to always do whatever your parents tell you, and I know our parents do certain things out of love, and it’s all they know, especially when we’re given a set rule, a set path that’s been passed on from generation to generation, like, They don’t know any better, right?

So they think this is the path to success. This is how it works. Don’t go outside of it because if not, you’re crazy and you’re a failure. So, especially venturing out on your own, like, I was always scared that my parents weren’t proud of me.

And I had to learn to let go of their approval because if I held on to it, I wouldn’t have done anything. So that’s one of the things and I think just for me, like how women are seen in Asian culture, right? We’re seen as running the household, being the housewife and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Of course, if that is what you want to do, that is great because the most underpaid and undervalued job in the world is being a mother and running a household. It takes a lot of work. It’s kind of like running a business, but sometimes that’s all we’re seen as right. The housewife running the household is not doing well, what if we want to be an entrepreneur?

What if we want to create our own path? What if we want to take up ballet? I don’t know, there are just so many different options out there for women who are always defined by one thing. So I had to unlearn a lot of that. I had to unlearn to be okay to speak up, be okay to come out of my shell, right?

That’s definitely not easy, right? Especially when you live in a conservative family. So, those are some of the things.

Yana Fry: Sounds like it takes a lot of inner strength. How do you deal with rejection and criticism so that it actually does not really get to you? It doesn’t stop you from achieving your goal. And the most important thing is that it does not negatively affect you. Affect your self-confidence. How did you figure out how to deal with this?

Sheena Yap Chan: I mean, with criticism, I had to realise that I wasn’t the only one dealing with it. Like, Even the most famous women in the world deal with criticism on a daily right in the beginning when they first get it. It’s a little bit like you feel bad, right? You feel like a failure, but you have to realise you can’t please everyone and those people who criticise you are not your people, right?

Especially in the online world. So I had to learn to ignore that. I mean, it’s easier said than done, but sometimes when you see it, of course, it can still get to you. But I realised I had to keep moving forward. I saw all the other amazing women out there who are making, we’re doing big things in their careers and get so much hate.

But never said a bad thing about them, right? Never fought with them. Never said anything. They just kept moving forward with their careers and it’s landed them more opportunities. So I realised that the only answer I can give them is me constantly pushing forward, constantly creating achievements, me being able to share the achievements that I’ve done so that other women out there can realise what’s possible. And I think that’s the best way to, I guess, answer the criticism.

Yana Fry: Sheena, when I look at you, I see a very beautiful, very strong, and very realised woman. And to be honest, I can’t even imagine how and what somebody would criticise you for. So can you just give us an example? Like what, what can possibly people say?

I mean, I think there was a video that was posted on my Instagram that someone, like on Instagram, you can collaborate on a post. I was talking about just the things that Asian women still face negative stereotypes.

Sheena Yap Chan: This was just a 30-second clip that’s based on like a 30-minute interview. And so that 30-second clip, everyone started getting mad and it was mostly men, right, saying, there you go. There goes another person who’s complaining. There’s someone again who’s having a victim mentality.

Who said being quiet and submissive was a bad thing? Maybe you should go back to China. Maybe you should shut, like all, it was insane. And yeah. In the beginning, I was like, Oh my God, I’ve never received this much hate ever. So yeah, of course, it got to me a little bit and I realised, I’m reading stories of other women who go through like a million times more than I do.

Women, women get the most hate, right? For just every little thing that we do. We’re like, we’re, we’re like seen under a microscope and every step we make, it’s like we make one mistake and it’s like the end of the world.

And men make mistakes all the time and nothing happens. So I realised that, okay, well, you know what, I’m not the only one who goes through this. A lot of women who are doing amazing things go through this and I just move forward. There was one point where I even got PTSD when I would see a comment notification because.

It was just so much. And, me and my, and the, the girl who interviewed me, we would check up on each other and be like. Are you okay? We’re getting all these crazy notifications. If you need to talk, I’m here and we’re just checking in on each other, right? Because it can affect us mentally.

So. Especially if you’re doing something, you’re always going to have haters, right? It’s an indication that you’re taking action in what you do and that’s not something we can hide from, right?

These people, most of them are pictures of a cat or a picture of a cartoon and won’t even show their real face, but have the audacity to go out there and attack people out of nowhere, right? They’re brave behind a computer, but then they don’t do anything.

I mean, I’ve just learned to keep moving forward, being able to write, another book with a publisher has been amazing. That’s something that I never thought was possible. In fact, having a first book was something I never thought was possible or being able to say, Wall Street Journal bestselling author was something that I never thought was possible.

Well, but. I surprised myself as well. And I do this to show others that anyone can do this. I’m not the smartest. I didn’t graduate with a fancy degree. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. But sometimes we feel like our past is our future and your past doesn’t equate to your future. Like, And when you do that, everyone else will take you seriously.

Yana Fry: Thank you so much for sharing, particularly this part, because I know the moment we go into, more vulnerable and maybe not so, not so pleasant memories. It’s not always easy to share it publicly with people. So first of all, thank you for the courage to do that.

When it was happening to me, they found women. I just criticised much more and usually, people who criticise women would be men and the criticism particularly happens if a woman of any culture, any background, or any religion decides that she is not willing to fulfil a traditional role.

And especially if she starts speaking about it publicly, it feels like the whole hell just breaks loose and men lose it. And then it goes, there’s, how dare you and go back and know your place.

And so to me also, when I was just like, even in my own story earlier, when I was reading all those comments and which I stop at some point because. People also say, if you do go through a hate wave, do not read the comments, and do not engage with haters. You have to move on, right? You have to protect your nervous system from those things.

a woman who is traumatised, let’s say if a man leaves a woman, then usually her pain is becoming internalised. In most cases, there are exceptions. But most of the time, she turns inwards and she starts eating and beating up herself. So when a man is in a similar situation, let’s say if a partner leaves or something happens in the family and the man gets abandoned or in the heat, the mind gets abandoned, and then their pain and anger become externalised.

And they lash out at the world. And they start lashing out at all the other women out there who are doing all those things.

But there is still a huge group who do not have enough courage to actually look within and ask themselves whether they really want to. So they often try to continue fulfilling certain roles out of fear or obligation, not because they really want to. And then when they see a woman like you, for example, who stands up and decides to walk the path the way you want to walk it based on your choices and your values, it is very threatening for so-called female sisterhood, because now you threaten their values and their ideals.

And just by simply being yourself. you’re influencing them to question their own life choices and it could be very painful for people. So this is another category that also attacks women like that, it’s usually other women. And so, when I looked at this, I was like, how bizarre is that? We need to change the situation.

Sheena Yap Chan: It’s true. we’re also a part of the problem, right? I used to work in the office. I used to deal with catty women and it was unfortunate that it still even happens today, as well, especially women in the workplace.

Right. You think we’re there for each other, but you know, there’s one woman at the top of the leadership and sometimes they’re too afraid to bring other women up. In that position, and I don’t, it’s, we have to learn to have this abundance mindset that there’s more than enough seats. Like, if you look at the reports, the ratio of men to women in C suite roles are horrendous, like, a report from McKinsey mentioned in the U.

There’s one in four women who are, one woman to four men who are in C suite positions and then one in 16 women of colour, right? So those numbers are still very disproportionate. And we have to find ways to change those numbers. And if there are proven reports that, if companies have more women in leadership, they actually have better work culture, and better productivity.

And better profit margins, right? And of course all, companies just want bigger profit margins, right? Which I understand because they’re running a business, right? So you have to talk in their language. So it’s like, you want more money? You have to hire more women in leadership.

Yana Fry: I like that. So often people say, Oh, it’s men who are bullying women. I’m like, well, women bully women too. Just exactly.

Sheena Yap Chan: There are men out there who are super supportive and it’s the women who aren’t it’s really unfortunate that it still happens You know, like especially like in the workplace, you work really hard You don’t complain and then you end up getting more work because you work hard and if you make one mistake It’s like the end of the world, right?

Like you’re just a failure, and then you feel unmotivated in your work because You’ve put your heart and soul into your job and then you get this criticism and it just brings you down. And so, having confidence at work is very important as well. Right. There’s also another report that mentioned like.

Employee confidence is only like 9 per cent of the workforce. Nine, 9%. So more than 90 percent of the workforce don’t feel confident. And you know what happens when you’re not confident, your productivity goes down, your work culture goes down and guess what else goes down your profit margin. So, this is why it’s important to have personal development untapped.

The potential that you have in each employee, because those could be the people that could be the solution to having more, more, better margins, having better productivity, and having a better work culture. Like possibilities are endless, of course.

Yana Fry: And I know you’re also very popular about mental health, right? And since we are on the topic of self confidence, maybe let’s just look at a bit more practical aspect of this. So for, people, and maybe especially women who are listening to us or watching this right now, like if you were maybe to give some tips, perhaps maybe even from your own practice.

Things that helped you or you watched other women. So we’re talking about how we protect our inner peace, right? So to make sure that actually we can raise our self confidence.

Sheena Yap Chan: I think one thing as women, we don’t do, but we, we must do it. Set boundaries. I know that’s easier said than done. I’ve been there, but sometimes we have to learn to say no to the things that don’t serve us.

Basically, I saw this quote that said, you have to say no, because there’s a deeper Yes, waiting for you. And that really, I was like, Oh, that that’s a good one. Right? Sometimes we’re afraid to say no, because we don’t want to, we don’t want to, we don’t want the other person to get mad at us.

But, sometimes we get taken advantage of and we get walked all over because we keep saying yes to everything. And it’s also really a great feeling when you can say no to someone because. It just doesn’t help you. So that’s one, one thing as women, we really practise on.

When it comes to building confidence, it’s not about taking big leaps. It’s just taking small daily actionable steps to yield the big results, right?

Sometimes we take that big leap and then. We don’t hit it. We feel bad. And then our confidence goes down even more so that’s why I say, just take small, actual daily steps. So, like. Everyone wants to write a book, right? but they’re like, it’s the most daunting thing in the world, and most people spend like three years still thinking about writing a book, right?

So, I say, if you want to write a book, just start writing a page a day for a year straight. At the end of the year, you’re going to have one full book or even two books. So that’s what I mean just taking the small daily actionable steps.

And then also surround yourself with people who will be there for you, right? Who you surround yourself with is very important. And I know sometimes you have people in your life that you just, Can’t get away from like certain family members, right.

But you know, we just try our best to have a strong mindset to like to tune it out as much as we can. That’s as best as we can. I know it’s not gonna happen overnight. So yeah, those are some of the tips I would mention.

Yana Fry: So what are your big dreams for the next maybe like five years or so? I know another book is coming, right?

Sheena Yap Chan: It’s still in the beginning stages, so we’re still working on that. It’s a plan, we’re planning to have it out in 2025 sometime. So, I’ve gotten a little bit more time on this book versus the first one. The first one I had to write in less than three months.

So it was just really crazy. I think for me, it’s just. In all honesty, even though I’m about helping, empowering Asian women. I mean, it goes beyond that, right? Whatever struggles we go through most women can relate to, right? Like you and I, we may come from different cultures, but we still go through similar things.

And we’re more similar than different when you realise it. I mean, I’ve spoken to a lot of women from different cultures. And when I share my story, they like, Oh my God, I can totally relate to that. Oh my God, you’re right. Like we go through negative stereotypes, we don’t practise self love or self care.

We feel like we have to take care of everybody else before ourselves. Anything we do outside of what society tells us is considered shameful and it’s like, we can’t even move an inch without being constantly judged, right. Or put under a microscope. So I think in all honesty, it’s always about just being able to go out, being able to show women that they can go out there and be who they are authentically. They can be leaders, they can be entrepreneurs, they can really be who they want to be if they believe in themselves, and sometimes it just takes one woman to show them to open that door, to break that ceiling or barrier, or bamboo ceiling, whatever that may look like. oh

Yana Fry: Thank you so much for being such a wonderful example, Sheena. So if you were to look at Sheena, who may be, I don’t know, 10 or 12 years old, and she still has a lot of things to figure out ahead of you, and you are the woman you are today, what personal message would you like to give to her?

Sheena Yap Chan: my gosh. I think I would just tell her that everything’s gonna be fine, like everything’s gonna work out as it is, right? I think we go through certain things because, there’s a story behind it, there’s a lesson, there’s a reason, and when you look back, like, you’ll figure out everything just made sense, everything happened the way it happened and then you’re just grateful for everything, even including your struggles, your doubts, your fears, because those are the things that help you build your confidence and strength today.

Yana Fry: Thank you so much. And to our audience, I do encourage everyone to go and first of all, reach in his book and we’re going to make sure that we include the link in the episode description. So please check it out and absolutely listen to your podcast. I mean, more than 800 episodes. This is a massive achievement.

So great job and to your consistency and persistence that you’re actually doing that. And I can see that spirit and the fire and just wishing you all the very, very best with where you’re heading. I am looking forward to reading your second book.

And it was so honest, heartfelt, and our stancic to have this conversation with you today. So thank you for who you are, for the work that you are doing.

And it was a pleasure to have you on timeless teachings.

Sheena Yap Chan: Oh, thanks for having me. I had such a blast.

Our Guest: Sheena Yap Chan

Sheena Yap Chan is a keynote speaker, podcaster, consultant, and author. She is on a mission to help Asian women boost their confidence to live in their authentic selves and to encourage stronger, more authentic representation of Asian women. She is a bestselling co-author of Asian Women Who Boss Up.