JT21 | Aki Taha On How To Negotiate Your Job Offer

For those of us hunting for a job it’s usually a puzzle as to how we should go about negotiating the offer. Should we play hardball and risk losing the opportunity? Or do we just go with what’s been offered and maybe leave money on the table?

Well, today we are talking with Aki Taha, who was till recently leading recruiting for Netflix in Asia Pacific. He’s kindly offered to help us understand what goes on behind the scenes during the recruiting process and how to go about negotiating a job offer.

If you’re interested in checking out Talent Stories, here is the link.

Discussion Topics: Aki Taha On How to Negotiate Your Job Offer

• Who are the different stakeholders in the hiring process
• What the different stakeholders are looking for
• How can recruiters help you
• Negotiation techniques and when to use what
• Negotiating the different components of compensation

Transcript: Aki Taha On How to Negotiate Your Job Offer

For those of us hunting for a job it’s usually a puzzle as to how we should go about negotiating the offer. Should we play hardball and risk losing the opportunity? Or do we just go with what’s been offered and maybe leave money on the table?

Well, today we are talking with Aki Taha, who was till recently leading recruiting for Netflix in Asia Pacific. He’s kindly offered to help us understand what goes on behind the scenes during the recruiting process and how to go about negotiating a job offer.

So with that said, Aki, welcome to JobTok. It’s a pleasure to have you here with us today. Perhaps we could start with a short intro?

Thanks for having me. I’ve spent most of my career in some form of talent role, in HR for a few years, but the majority of it’s been in recruiting. The different orgs, different stages, different types of recruiting, but that’s been the core of it. Since after university, I’ve been working in tech startups. I worked a few years as a headhunter and then found myself at Google and then joined a venture capital firm in California. After that, I joined Dropbox when it was about Dropbox and then I joined Uber. And most recently did the same at Netflix joined it in 2016 and spent the better part of the last five years. Scaling out the hiring across Asia for Netflix, which was a blast. Just recently, I launched my own content company called talent stories with Usman Sheikh. And the two of us are big believers in the need to do this stuff better, to be more intentional with career and work versus winging it like we tend to do. And so the content we’ll be putting out is very much focused on precisely that.

It sounds like just the kind of thing that our listeners enjoyed learning more about, so I’m definitely going to drop a link to talent stories on the website. So, Aki, we are here to talk about negotiating job offers and things like that but let’s discuss why it is important to negotiate the offer because ultimately a company presumably wants to get good talent on board. They would presumably make a fair offer to begin with. So why bother?

Interesting assertion. I think most companies, you assume good intent and you give the benefit of the doubt. The reality is I want a certain job offer but the company wants to pay me less. I want a promotion but there are only so many promotions a company can give. So I think being clear-eyed about those tangents is actually really healthy. And I should say too, as we just get into this whole discussion around negotiation, I’m an advocate for negotiation I’ve negotiated throughout my career with different levels of success which I’m happy to talk about. I do want to flag though that it is not easy for everybody. And it comes more intuitively and more naturally. And there are lots of studies that show that some groups and typically underrepresented groups when they negotiate can face more sort of repercussions than other groups. So I just also want to be just as clear about that, that I will advocate for this. I am a big believer in it.

The importance of negotiation is a few fold. One, the notion of getting what you’re worth. And most of us want to get paid what we’re worth in terms of the market, in terms of the impact we’re having when we join the company, as well as over time. And there’s another component to why one should negotiate that it has more to do with compounding.I It’s a tremendously powerful force when it’s harnessed properly. Negotiation is one of the compounding career skills and there’s huge ROI to be had from negotiating and starting to do it earlier than not in your career.

Could you maybe give a bit more detail on that? What do you mean by compounding in terms of this whole job negotiation?

When it comes to compounding, one is there’s a learning curve here. I had a painful but fun formal negotiation but the point is you’re probably not going to be that good when you start doing something and that’s fine. The important thing is to get in the reps and to start early so that by the time you get to mid-career for instance, then you’re halfway decent at things and you get to enjoy being good at, in this case negotiation. So the timing and the rep, the number of reps that you put in is really important.

And then the way compounding works materially in negotiation and careers with example is if you take two people who joined the same company in the same year with the same job offer but with slightly different salary. It’s not a huge amount but because they’re making a hundred, $5,000 in job one, when it comes to the job two, they can typically able to command an even higher salary and then the compounding begins such that by job three or job four and most of us in our careers are going to have close to double digit jobs.

The person who caught the extra amount is also better at negotiating, which means they’re also getting the bigger hikes as time goes on. So the destocking with the higher ups and accelerating whereas the other ones on a much lower track.

That’s right. Or the other one maybe starts at some point, but they don’t get that compounded benefit in the early years of the curve.

This is a very powerful illustration. If someone before this episode thought, negotiation is not that important and it’s an uncomfortable discussion, they will now have a better understanding and reason why it’s important.

To share my first formal interview, I accepted an offer from the company which my friend happen to accept the same offer too but later I found out that he was getting a higher salary. I called the head of recruiting and talked about it. He didn’t like that negotiation tactic which I can appreciate. Long story short he asked if I’m worth this much more and if so, he can offer that to me. The lesson was good even tho pointing out what someone is making is not the best way to do it. After I left that job, I joined the head hunting firm with other people but at a higher salary because I got better at negotiating.

It’s a good thing you learnt from that experience. I haven’t been a good negotiator especially in my early career years. So what are some of the lessons that you took away? A lot of people look at the salary on offer and ask 10% more on the base and it may or may not get it for some reason. So how does one negotiate or what are the different elements that one should look at when looking at the overall compensation?

It clearly depends on the type of organization you’re joining, whether it’s big multinational corporation or a startup versus. I think oftentimes the fixation can be on the base salary but there are other factors like equity and ownership at startups can actually wind up being much more powerful than your base, off the top of my head. The equity amount that you would get, if it’s either a startup or lots of public companies that can otherwise still offer stock to employees. It might be harder to influence in larger companies, obviously, but still something to negotiate. And that’s probably something better done sort of midstream than it is at the end, but it can be done. And it should be if you are inappropriately level, because once you’re in the company, it’s not going to change easily.

You’ve got a sign on bonuses, right? It’s amazing. I think people forget that they can and should think about negotiating. There are pros and cons to it and it’s properly inserted like all of this at the right moment, but that can be a nice way to increase your RA package and things like start date, timing, right? Usually companies want you in the chair the day before yesterday but it’s something that you can at least try and negotiate, and it’s not financial at all.

That’s a lot of different options, essentially. And so what you’re saying is apart or instead of base, you could negotiate more equity. And, maybe companies will appreciate it because it shows you’re on the same page with them. You want to grow with them and it will definitely build more wealth overtime than your base salary is going to.

Yeah. And by implication self-awareness is really important. Like knowing what’s important to you and knowing what these components are. So that you can go into a negotiation with a sense of what you do and don’t want to push for. And all of this is deeply personal. It depends on your personal situation, your personality and your risk appetite. But the better you are at knowing what matters to you, the better your negotiation is going to be, because it’ll be more focused. The reality is you don’t really know what’s important to you when you’re starting out. Taking note of that as you go along and learning from your negotiational, I asked for more base that wound up that the equity was worth five times as much, etc. That’s a good lesson and you bring that into the next negotiation.

If you’re self-aware and you’re doing this constant analysis and making the effort to negotiate, you can get some nice return on that effort. For sales people, it may or may not be sales or number driven but the bonus could be paid in cash or in stock and they should negotiate that as well.

Do you think people should negotiate on the title and accept the package as it is?

Yeah, if that’s what you want, I would suggest negotiating in a way that is enthusiastic and curious if the title and your impact are a match. You can see if you could talk about that in the middle of the process and if you and company agree on the same level, you can have another conversation about your compensation at that level.

This is very interesting because some of these are probably components people have not talked about in the past. So, you’ve figured out what your negotiation approach is going to be, or what do you want to press on? But there are so many people in the process and how do you know who to negotiate with? Are they all aligned? Are you negotiating with a single group or does everybody have different targets and you have to work on all of them?

It depends on the org, on the company, on the size of the company, the stage of the company, how they run but generally speaking, you need to know who has the final say among the people in the process. For some organizations, it’s the collective decision, for some, it was the compensation team driving the decision. If you go, stakeholder by stakeholder, you should know what each of them are optimizing for and use that well for negotiation. For example, recruiters are overstretched with positions to fill, at the same time to save face in front of hiring managers etc. Hiring managers have pressures from their managers to build out the teams. HR and compensation teams in a lot of organizations are concerned with the parody and internal equity. Very noble concerns but not necessarily aligned with the first two parties.

So what does the compensation person look at when designing comp?

At the startups, first and foremost, they start looking at the level whether it’s a director or VP or an individual contributor. And then depending on the company and the role, some companies like Google look for an advanced degree but Uber or Netflix doesn’t care about a degree. So, what the compensation teammate is going to look at depends on the firm’s value.

You mentioned that there’s a band, there’s a range of salaries depending on the level. Why don’t you default to the top of the range everyday?

The flatter the distribution of pay within a level, the harder it becomes to manage performance. If everyone is at the top of the range, when it comes the time for a raise, absent a promotion, the manager will have a hard time motivating her or his team.

Thanks for sharing that Aki. It is a natural thought process for someone to stick at the top if there’s a range. Maybe the person will be promoted in 2 or 3 years, but in the interim, they should get at least the average merit increase but if they’re stuck at the top end of the range, they’re actually going to progress much slower or they won’t get any hikes at all.

As a manager, they know who in the team comes in with experience, background and how great they perform. It’s counterintuitive to pay someone off the street just like one of my best performers. So, there’s a defensible logic as a manager to your team around who gets paid what and why. The less variability you have, the more risk of being able to defend yourself and you have to be able to justify yourself on the way you’re running your team. The second thought is for a manager or HR to not create a sort of collective bias towards people who negotiate well. You’d be right to ask what group these folks come from. Typically men negotiate more than women and you have to think if there’s a risk of creating some bias.

Essentially, what you’re saying is, for the comp, there should be 80% of objective measure to remove bias, create equity internally and maybe 20% of it could be some variability from what the person is saying. It’s been quite insightful.

Do you have any thoughts about how to approach the negotiation process in a manner that you get what you’re looking for without being annoying?

I’ll throw out a few frameworks for the overall process first. People need to understand that every tough point and engagement with a company is part of the negotiation process, some more than others, depending on whom you’re speaking to and the timing of the process. People make mistakes by negotiating at the end but actually, you should be showing “genuine and healthy” enthusiasm and skepticism during the hiring process regardless of who you’re speaking with. The curiosity about the role, the level, the impact you’re going to have, or the learning you can get, these are the things you should communicate at the right moment during your hiring process and build that understanding on the part of the hiring manager and the recruiter that this isn’t a slam dunk.

So, the first person you’re talking with usually is the recruiter. How do you make the recruiter into some sort of a partner in this whole process to make it work?

That’s your goal. You’re not looking to be their best friend or vice versa but they should at least know the push and pull factors for you. Your job is to make sure they are armed with a sense of what’s practical, what’s reasonable, what you’re optimizing for, what’s important to you, what your motivations are. You have multiple touch points and media to get those information to that partner and it’s their role to communicate those internally to Hiring manager and comp team.

So, what you’re saying is the recruiter should know the parameter or the circumstances in which you would make the decisions so that there should be no unpleasant surprises later in the discussion.

Yeah, it’s about appreciating the process and strategically, thoughtfully and honestly dosing your needs while showing who you are, why you’re great and why they should hire you. Recruiters can be very helpful for addressing things like compensation or leveling. Oftentimes, it’s easiest and best done through a good recruiter but a good hiring manager would be creating a conduit for the purpose of ensuring they got a great hire and creating a foundation for good communication with their employee-to-be.

The starting point is inherently filled with tension. Like you said, you’re trying to get the best for yourself and the company is trying the best for itself. It’s good to have the recruiter as a buffer. Through the hiring process, there are different steps. Presumably, the later you are in the process, the more desirable you are to the company. When should you start thinking about what the compensation looks like? How do you take it forward at that point?

Once you’re five or six steps into the process, the ambiguity of whether you fit the role or the culture have drastically reduced and you’ve built momentum, credibility and you need to remember that leverage you’ve gained for negotiation. At that point, you should try and collect some data for yourself, your existing compensation which you know and try to research and use your network to get more data. Towards the end, you need to be aware of how you feel about things and have enough information about the opportunity. It would be helpful to make the decision and how to approach the negotiation. When you’re negotiating with one arm behind their back, and it becomes harder to have a smooth, effective negotiation in good faith.

Essentially, look at all the components of the compensation, know what the opportunity carries, and the growth and prospects of the company right at the start and know what you want to be flexible on or not. Get a sense of whether you like the culture, the manager and you will know how badly you want this job or not.

Slightly different question here. Oftentimes, when people are asked about the previous or current compensation they are on, they are afraid the offer would be anchored on that amount they’re earning. How do you go about it?

It would be wrong to say the offer will not be unanchored to it but it’s your right to share that information. The downside of not sharing is one – you will create an awkward vibe, two – they will assume you make peanuts. My advice is to share the number but also the well presented context around it like what the amount is based on, if you’re up for promotion or if you’re underpaid rather than sharing a really desirable number in a very uncontextualized way. When you’re making an ask for more compensation at the end, providing why and context make things better for negotiation.

What are some of the signs when things are going wrong? Or things you should maybe reconsider what is happening?

One is the speed. If you ask something and the reply takes 2 weeks, you know the company or individual is running slowly. You will see the signals of the speed at which things do or don’t happen. Second is the assumption of good intent and trust. If they make decisions based on the data you collected or if they reject in the extreme, you will sense what’s going on. The other thing is whether you are interacting with recruiter or hiring manager, you can have a sense of the opacity or transparency. If you can’t have a conversation about compensation, that’s a really loud signal that you need to be careful and maybe think about not joining that individual or company.

What you’re saying is this is one of, this is an example of how a tense situation or emotional situation is going to feed like at the company. So if they come across as okay, if we get you, you’re trying to figure this out. Work with us, that kind of thing makes you feel good then likely your normal working life will also be like that versus they’re like not going to listen to you or I’m just going to ghost you for weeks while we figure out other candidates. Not so great.

Is it collaborative? Is it dismissive? Is it fast? Is it the flow? Is it high trust or low trust? The signals are all over the place.

Okay, this has been a fantastic conversation. So before we close, is there any, are there any takeaways that we should leave our listeners with? Like maybe in summary? Some of the key points.

I tell my kids all the time. If you don’t ask, you don’t get. The curve and the compounding we talked about at the beginning, the earlier you can get in the habit of doing this, the earlier you get into the okayness of doing this, the greater the ROI. At some point, for most of us, you’ll be on the other side. And so you’ll be a better negotiator when it comes to bringing people into your own team and being able to track that team and it extends beyond work as well.

It’s been super helpful. Usually when we have these conversations, we are always like this is what I wanted, how can it be so difficult, why can’t they get back to me or how do I get more? Or should I even ask. And I think this whole discussion around the different stakeholders, what are they looking for? How to try and make them your partners, how to get them to be rooting for you. This is all extremely good.

Thank you Aki for sharing these with us. And for those listening, we were Aki and Amit with JobTok. See you next time.