JT24 | Pallav Patni On Making A Career As A Specialist

Well, today we are speaking with Pallav Patni, who has spent his entire 20-year career so far in finance, and in fact, focused on the consumer goods industry. So we are going to ask him, what keeps him motivated and challenged and what are the lessons he would like to share from all of those years, building a career in a specialised function.

Discussion Topics: Pallav Patni on Making a Career as a Specialist

• Career is a personal brand and you have the choice to shape as you like
• Some of the ingredients for successful career
• Applying Ikigai concept to career and life
• “The biggest risk we all can take, is to not take a risk at all”
• Balance in life while growing career

Transcript: Pallav Patni on Making a Career as a Specialist

Welcome to another episode of JobTok. If you work for a few years in the corporate world, you might have realised that the working world is divided into two kinds of people, generalists and specialists. And while it might seem that being a generalist gives you maximum flexibility, and maybe even the chance of getting to the top as CEO, the reality is that companies don’t really run and cannot actually run without the help of a strong cast of specialists, HR people, lawyers, finance people, facilities, and maybe to an extent, even sales. And as such, specialist careers could well be a lower risk way of building a career, since these skills kind of always remain in demand in one way or the other. But on the other hand, it might seem very daunting to build a career like this, how does one stick to one thing for 20, 30, maybe even 40 years? What could possibly keep one motivated to stay in the same function for long enough to be valued and indispensable to the corporate world?

Well, today we are speaking with Pallav Patni, who has spent his entire 20-year career so far in finance, and in fact, focused on the consumer goods industry. So we are going to ask him, what keeps him motivated and challenged and what are the lessons he would like to share from all of those years, building a career in a specialised function.

So, with that said, Pallav thank you so much for joining us today. And maybe before we begin, would you like to share with us your journey so far?

So first of all, thank you Amit for having me here. And as you rightly mentioned, I’ve spent close to two decades in finance in the consumer goods industry, mostly working for CPG Companies, which are multinationals like Unilever, PepsiCo, Kellogg and Kimberly Clark. And I’ve spent basically all my working years on aspects of finance, like supply chain finance, marketing, finance, strategy financial planning and analysis, essentially, the gamut of roles, which exist in finance. And in that sense it’s been kind of a long and fulfilling journey but there’s more to go as well.

Yeah, I mean, first of all, you describing different aspects of finance itself is interesting, because to me, finance is finance, but it’s interesting that you could play a role in different parts of the company and specialise on those particular aspects.

Right. That’s the interesting part about the FMCG, or the CPG Industry, that the moment you put a product in the value chain, it has various elements which come into being, and then as a finance partner or as a functional partner, you may get to do a lot of different jobs while being in the same organisation.

Yeah, I think that’s already giving us a clue into how one stays motivated and refreshed through the entire process. But Pallav, before we get into your learnings and things like that, what would you say is the main message or the underlying thread that keeps one going in a specialist kind of role in particular, but I think even more broadly, over in a long career.

Right, like you mentioned, if you’re going to spend 30 to 35 years of your life in creating a career for yourself, I think the main thing that I would say is that it’s important for one to just be deliberate and planful about it. As you’re embarking on that path it’s not that you will make a plan and then you will just need to stick to that plan. There might be stages where you might have to course correct and check and adjust. In my view, a career is like a personal brand, which gets built over the span of 20-30 years. So the good news is that you have the choice to shape it the way you want, mold it the way you want, break the mold, if you want and recreate, etc. but, at the end of the day, if you’re deliberate and planful about it, you have a chance to create something which you would like at the end. You can measure the success of that with your own measuring scale.

Right. The planful part of it is interesting, because actually to be honest Pallav, in my own regard, I really never was like that I ended up kind of floating from thing to thing but I’ve spoken with people who are much more planned, and they know where they want to go and I do see that helps accelerate many aspects of your career, because you’re focused on one thing, you tend to start doing that very well and you can plan with an objective in mind versus just floating around. So is this something that you actually figured out right at the start, or very early on, like the planfulness, and the fact that you wanted to build a career in finance?

No. When I look at concepts like the Simon Sinek video of starting with the why, or you look at the ikigai concept, etc. one can kind of retrofit it to what it would have been. But the fact is that I muddle my way through it like most of us. I kind of brought ikigai, the Japanese concept of the golden name perhaps more later as well and a lot of these choices of spending 20 years, 30 years in finance, which today seem like a foregone conclusion, or actually not so. And my whole theory at that point of time, when I was kind of trying to grow professionally was, what am I good at, and what I can be paid for. If I’m good at something, and if I can be paid for that, it might get me a decent career.

But what I realised a few years later was that the third circle in the ikigai is what I love doing. You being good at something has to be linked to what you at the end love doing. Now, you have a choice to either develop that love and affiliation to what you do. Not all aspects will excite you, that’s fair. Finding the why was really about getting a decent intersection between what you’re good at, what you can be paid for, and what you can love doing as well. So I think once I realised the third one, and tried to gain more interest in the field, that’s when I kind of made peace with my career journey as well as starting doing perhaps better than I could have earlier.

Right. So, I think what you’re saying is that you didn’t started out with the plan, you started out with a certain set of things that you like doing, it happened to take you into finance. Over time you realise that actually, because it fits with your interest and it’s a job and is paying you two of those ikigai circles already there and then you started to develop a love for it as well and so then you got good at it and that starts that whole virtuous cycle. You need to quickly figure out what is the thing that you’re going to want to do in life, and then kind of plan to do well in that, and that’s the planfulness you’re talking about. I think that makes a lot of sense. And it does explain how some people tend to do very well as specialists, because they probably figured out that this is their thing that they will want to do and then they get good at it, because they like doing it.

And I just add one small thing to that Amit, which is that as you go along your career, because it might not have been the first choice and therefore, you muddled through it. And as you go along, you develop more and more interest. But along the way there would be temptations offered by the organisation, or when you are doing those roles to say, can I go into sales and marketing, for example, or can I venture into general management, and so on and so forth. Those could come at midpoint or even before. So, what will make you stick and you know one of my friends gave me great advice was that it’s always tempting to branch out and do something different but what you have to remember is that you need to choose a vocation, which you enjoy doing, even if you’re stuck in a rut and are not successful. And that’s the piece that kind of inspired me to say, let me choose something that I enjoy doing.

So that’s an interesting one Pallav, essentially it’s almost like you’re saying that even sticking with one kind of line or one function is still a series of choices.

That’s right. And if I take 30 seconds more and tell you about this, that the Roger Federer story between 2012 to 2017 for a champion player who won 17 Grand Slams till then to not win a single Grand Slam for five years what did that mean? So one of his peers was analysing that and he said that the thing that I would want to take away from Rogers’ game is the joy and the happiness that he gets. When he plays, he just plays for the love of the sport. So how could you go on for four, five years without winning and I guess that’s the emotion that I’m kind of trying to convey.

Yeah, that’s really good insight. If you’re going to do something for a long period of time, you better enjoy doing it. And it can’t just be about who’s going to pay me more and that’s why I just keep doing that particular thing. So in your opinion, what are some of the ingredients to succeed? I mean, it’s one thing that you picked the line, but then you also want to be successful. So what are some of the ingredients of doing that?

I would say the first one would be aspiration, the second one would be ability and the third one would be choices along the way. It all starts with aspiration. Aspiration could be either defined as the fire in the belly or the hunger that you have but it’s also contextual and unique to the individual. I would say aspiration is the foundation, depending upon what is your level of hunger and fire, and what’s the kind of impact that you would want career to have on your life. I think the rest of the two stem from the aspiration, but it’s important. So when I say ability, there are some innate abilities but over the years, you realise that you will keep on succeeding and making different levels, and the ability requirement will keep on changing as you straddle the ladder.

So there is innate, and there is also cultivated, and the fact is that we all need to cultivate newer and newer abilities at a regular basis and that’s the only way to succeed. And then the last piece is choices, which would be the decisions that you would make along the way. In a lot of cases that people have high aspirations, they have medium ability, but the decisions and choices that they make are at times so relevant, that they are able to still make a very successful career versus someone who had great ability, but was afraid to make some choices or some decisions. So I think it’s a magical combination of these three and depending on how you kind of played, you could have different outcomes. I would add to say that choices always have implications. So you need to just stay the course and reconcile with those implications as it happens.

So, there’s actually a few points here that I want to dive into a bit more. What you’re trying to say here is that not everybody needs to or wants to become a CFO of a large conglomerate, and that’s okay. You need to decide what is right for your life and then aim for that. Therefore, if you’ve calibrated your life, such that being a middle manager is good for you, then you should be happy with that and you’re the only person who needs to judge on that basis. I think the challenge in today’s world is that there are too many places to compare. And so, what would your recommendation be around that, which is how does one, get comfortable with one’s choice or at what stage do you think people become comfortable with choices different from what you would project on social media?

If I get your question right, what you’re saying is that, if you taken a choice, which is slightly different from the traditional choice of being constantly moving up, then how do you sort of reconcile with it at an overall level. Essentially, there is a golden mean that we all strive for, whether consciously or unconsciously, not just about work and career, but about life as a whole. And that fourth circle in Ikigai is basically what the world needs. So essentially, what I’m good at, what I can be paid for, what I love doing, and what the world needs. So in a way, it’s fulfilling all the four aspects that could be missing pieces in everyone’s life, and that unconsciously everyone strives for. So, the fact is that for someone who’s decided to have a different kind of career path, and has a different and unique aspiration, if it’s all thought through from the point of view of an overall life balance, then it’s absolutely fine as long as one is able to make peace with it, because every choice has an implication. But along the way, you might find that the choice you decided, and the result that you’re getting, there is a dissonance. The dissonance could be both ways. I could be extremely successful in my career, but I’m not getting fulfilment in my life. Equally, I’ve seen that people might have chosen a more relaxed career approach in order to perhaps balance their lives and then during, kind of a mid-path, they realised that I would have been or could have been happier if I was more successful. Those are dissonances, which will always trail us. And the only way we can overcome that is to think about the why and decide it but the fact is, we are all evolving and it’s important to keep addressing and course correcting. And I would say, it’s never too late to create another vision for yourself from here on to the next 10 years maybe you will kind of at least be happy that you try it.

Yeah, and in fact, I’m happy you said that, because I feel like a lot of people get stuck on that path and they don’t think they can break out of it, particularly the one where you’re moving very fast and then you want to slow down because that’s the exact situation where people will say, Oh, what’s wrong with you, you’re almost going to become X and now you’ve just decided to give it all up and become a hermit.

The other one I wanted to deep dive into a bit more is the right choices, because my understanding of that was something like, you see a lot of people where you feel like you’re so much better than them or people you know are so much better than them and capability. But somehow, they seem to be sailing through and doing very well, within quotes in life. So if that’s what you’re alluding to, then what is it that you think, are the kinds of choices or the things that they’re doing to actually be able to overcome the lack of capability in order to still move ahead?

I would say that just moving forward in a career is important. And some of the people who may take decisions, whether it is about taking a new role, a new assignment, a new risk, a new location, unchartered territories, sometimes turn out to be game changing as far as their career journey is concerned. The biggest risk we all can take, is to not take a risk at all. So one thing is very clear that it is a treadmill. If you’re staying at the same place, you will fall behind. And therefore, I really appreciate those friends and colleagues who have made those difficult choices. Sometimes it’s about staying in an organisation, when it’s going through a tough time. Sometimes it’s about taking a location, which is challenging, but the experience is very fulfilling. Sometimes it’s about taking a role which doesn’t have the trappings of success written on it, but could be an extremely different experience. So I appreciate friends and colleagues who have taken those risks, and therefore those choices have turned out to be great.

As I said, someone with high aspiration, medium ability, but absolutely the right attitude in terms of choices and decisions could make a much better career then some of us or some others. And equally, I would also say that, usually it’s very fashionable to attach a lot of deliberation to everything that happens in our lives and our colleagues’ lives, I would say there is clearly a role of luck, good and bad that gets played out in our lives and in our peers’ life. So at some stage, I would say the right opportunity at the right time, may come for you or for them. And when you’re reflecting back on a comparative chart on your career versus others, it’s important to just ground yourself on the fact that if you’ve stayed behind might not be for any good reason of your own doing and equally, if you’ve done better than it’s important to acknowledge the role of luck that would have played that part and kind of stay humble.

If you look at it part of the world or the online world and small organisations, which went on to become unicorns or even if they did not have the exposure, that one got when one immersed into that world and how it’s gained prominence today.

Right. So one is the good choice or the right choice that you’re saying that they made to do that in the face of obviously a lot of potential opposition. But then there’s also the luck element, which is that off-track thing could have remained an off-track thing, in which case well tried but still failed, kind of thing. So I think these are good points. And I actually like this framework of aspiration, ability and choices because I think it sums up quite nicely into how one should move forward for one’s own circumstance and desires. So maybe a little bit more on the ability front, because we didn’t touch upon that. So I mean, abilities about, I guess getting good at doing whatever that you’re doing. So how does one actually do that? Or what are your thoughts on in that respect?

So, look, as I said that you definitely focus on leveraging what your innate strengths are and it’s important for you to be self-aware that I just feel that when we are making a career, there is a brand name attached to how you conduct yourself and what you bring to the table, everyone has something unique. So the fact is that while we have mundane jobs and careers in a manner of speak, at the end of the day, we all bring something unique. So if there is something innate and unique, you need to find that, and you need to leverage that and really use that strength. So, that’s one and as far as building more and more ability is concerned, that is a journey that you also need to take very seriously. What got you here won’t get you there is an often used framework in corporate careers. So, the bigger job that you get, very different kinds of abilities are needed. And you have to keep working on that in your previous job, rather than when you land the next job.

In finance, in one of my previous companies, there was a great framework, which we were told was more function specific and it was about the four P’s of finance, which was essentially about if you want to be a well-rounded leader in finance, you’ve got to focus on productivity, partnering, process and people.There could be different frameworks around that but it’s basically a continuous and constant journey of learning and developing more and more abilities, Amit.

So this four P framework is kind of interesting one, how have you seen the finance world evolve over time, like when you first started, you would have looked up to various CFOs, who would have been in the organisation versus the CFO that you are today versus other more senior CFOs maybe that you might be looking at. How has the function evolved over these 20 years, to make something more or less important than it used to be?

So one I would say is that if you just stick to the four P’s, this was a role, which was always focused on the process, control element, reporting elements in the past and then there were elements of productivity anyway. So these two were there. What is got an oversized impact over the last many years is the partnering element. I think CEOs view CFOs as their strategic partners, I always give that analogy of a copilot. So you need to know how most aspects of the business work and therefore partner with the CEO to make sure that those aspects are running in the best possible way and using your functional skills, not to kind of doubt them as functional skills, but to use them to solve real business problems. So, I often say that I’m a finance professional with 20 years’ experience and a business professional with 15 years’ experience because after four, five years, thanks to my mentors and bosses, I realised that it’s the business which needs to kind of drive the way finance also needs to kind of service the business. So, in that sense the partnering element has had an outsized role. And the other thing I would say is technology has played an outsized role, a lot of roles can be automated, a lot of activities can be outsourced and therefore, what you focus as a finance group in an organisation is really to drive efficiencies in transactional or routine processes, but at the same time, add as much value as you can add through analysis insights in the rest of the function. So I think those are a few kind of irrevocable trends that I’ve seen, which are only strengthening,

Right. Actually, this partnering angle is an interesting one. So essentially you are saying 20 years back, maybe the CFO was like a policeman, like these are the numbers, you cannot reach any of these budgets, nothing and deliver the outcome, and I don’t care how you do it. But now it is more about not only do, I care how you do it, we need to co-work the solution together. So, because of all of this evolution, how does one keep up with all of this, essentially, like these changing trends and things like that.

In a way, it’s almost like VUCA is built in as a base case now. So, at the end of the day, you’ve just got to expect that there is some or the other aspect of the PNL, which will bring us a surprise, that’s the kind of world we live in, and no better example, than the last couple of years, or what’s happening, even currently. I guess, once you are prepared, that this is how businesses and PNL are going to play out what you can do at the backend is basically create systems and processes in such a way that there are always multiple scenarios that you will account for, you can make your IT systems and the ones which help you in forecasting in such a way that they will always have a flexibility to accommodate a few scenarios, the Plan B’s are no longer, just on paper, they would be activated a lot. So you better pay a lot of attention to those Plan B’s, and maybe C, D, etc. So, that’s the only way I would say instead of fighting, the dynamism that we have, just kind of build it into your processes and systems and move along, because there’s just no point in expecting a stable state in the environment.

So, I think maybe one last question around the lessons and stuff. You mentioned Ikigai a few times. So, why do you believe in this particular framework so much? And how has it shaped your thinking?

So I think, it stems from the fact that I’ve seen a few failures in my career, and what one realises is that you will eventually see some failures in your career, whether it could be a specific assignment or a series of jobs, and so on and so forth. And so is your life only going to be centred around the work that you do? Or is there something else that’s also important? So, I guess the golden mean is something elusive and we all strive for it. I do feel that every person at heart is striving for that mean, because that’s why we said right, so many friends and colleagues who are doing great at their career may have a vacuum, all the other way around. So, why is this? Because I guess we all strive for that golden mean, or that balance, that’s kind of always been at the back of my mind and a few events, etc., have reinforced the fact that one needs to find that balance. And, of course, it makes sense because you won’t always be successful, you won’t always have a job and at some point in time, you will have to have, as one of my mentors used to say, other channels of stimuli that you will have to have in your life. So, therefore, creating a set of hobbies or creating a set of family relationships or creating some set of sense of purpose that what you’re doing has some impact on the world and so on and so forth. is kind of important and that’s what keeps you going when there are lows in the career, there are many, many lows, of course, not just as events, but just off days, and you’ve got to have a few things that will get you up so that you can make this 35-year long journey.

Yeah, that’s right and I think it also kind of guards against you know when you only identify with your job, what are you I am XYZ, at XYZ company, then the problem is that when it goes away, which it inevitably will, at some point, then what are you left with? And if you don’t have anything else, and that’s, I mean, to me the surest recipe for depression, after that, because it has no meaning. So Pallav, you’re quite a thoughtful person, you write a lot on LinkedIn also, and I know you read and watch interesting things. So are there any resources that you can share which people can access to maybe elaborate a bit more on what you’ve talked about or just to guide them professionally?

Yeah, so I would say that growing professionally, I found a few books which were very motivating for me to do better at my job, and so on and so forth. And then over time some other kind of books, etc., inspired me. So, nature keeps changing, but yeah, I would say that there is this book by Stephen Covey called First Things First, which is a great one, which says that stop looking at the clock, start looking at the compass, and really decide what’s important for you. And the best way to time manage, is really to priority manage. So, I think it was really helpful in my formative years of my career. And then, I watched the Simon Sinek video of starting with the why a lot. That’s always inspiring every time you see it. So, I think that’s something. I would say, sports are great. And now, it depends upon what you get motivated from, it could be movies, sport, etc. But for me, sport has given me a lot of lessons in terms of what role models are able to generate and what spirit they bring and how they manage their careers. So I would say, if you follow a sport, there are always great lessons in sport. And then lately, I really liked a few other books, one called The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, and the other one called Life love and laughter by Osho. I think that’s more dwelling on the other balancing part, which we talked about, which is about saying that everything you need to bring your whole self to, but at the end of the day, you need to also have the perspective to know that it’s not the be all and end also, that goes to, I think, what we just discussed a few minutes back. So yeah, a mix of these few things, I’d say, could be good, you know, aid to have a balanced career.

Nice, I think it’s a good list of resources. And, in fact, this whole clock versus compass sounds fantastic. And the Why one was Simon Sinek, I’ve read the book. So it’s actually really good as well. In fact, my wife recommended it to me. So in fact, it’s sitting there on the shelf right now. So thanks a lot for sharing that. Now, before we close, I wanted to ask you, there’s a lot of people listening to this episode, and many of them may be early in their careers, and can actually spend the time trying to figure out, some of these things that you said, so what is maybe one thing that they could start doing immediately after this episode to just get started?

I would only say, Amit, that, in our careers, we spend a lot of time figuring out choices, and figuring out the ladder. How do we become this and that, and so on and so forth, I would say that, what immediately one can start doing is focus on doing versus becoming. And that’s kind of in a way saying that whatever you are, be a good one. So in that sense, remember that irrespective of choices, ability, aspiration, what gets you the next role, and the next assignment is really about how well you do your current assignment. So, instead of always focusing on what I could get next, and what I could become, if you just focus on doing the job at hand well, create whatever assignment you’ve got, the job you got, create a vision around it, consume yourself and immerse yourself in that and do an excellent job there, would be something that could be immediate it could start from tomorrow, and then the rest of it obviously could follow.

Yeah, I think that’s a good piece of advice because I have encountered people where every time you have a conversation with them, it’s like, oh, how can I get promoted next year? or what does that person think of me? Or how am I perceived and all of that. And I agree with you. I mean, if you just do a really good job, these questions won’t need to be asked, you’ll be noticed. Of course a good job means not just quietly doing it, but also all the other elements, partnering, communicating all that stuff that you mentioned. But if you’re doing all of that well, and you’re bringing your full self to it, and everybody can see it, then you won’t really need to worry so much about these other things.

Yes, absolutely. Anyone who asks me, let’s say, my colleagues or my X team members, etc., as to do you think we will become a CFO? And I say we all will become CFOs if that’s what you want, the choice that you want to exercise is, will you become a good CFO or not. And I think that’s what we need to focus on.

Right. Yeah, I think it’s a very good way of putting it because yeah fact is, if you move around enough, or you find some way to it, you will become whatever it is that you want to be. But if you aren’t a good one, then eventually you get found out. I think, ultimately, you can’t keep faking it till you make it forever with your career. Okay, so Pallav, thank you so much. I think, number one, extremely good and meaty conversation. And I think also a really good takeaway at the end, which is just do your thing really well, and many of these things will take care of themselves. And I’m sure a lot of people listening to this would have found it enlightening. So let me just summarise some of the points that you made. So, I think the first point was, well, broadly around Ikigai, but do something that you enjoy, and which resonates with you personally, because otherwise, it’s going to be hard to keep it up for 30-40 years. The second one was to focus on sort of a balance of three things, which is aspirations, abilities, and making good choices along the way so that you can, kind of accelerate your career or get to your aspirations in a sensible manner.

Third one was on focusing on becoming very good at your work. And then if you can be very good at your work, then good things will follow from there. Then we did touch upon the element of luck, which is, even if you’ve done all the good choices, and you’ve tried things, sometimes things don’t work and sometimes they work. But if you keep learning and evolving, and like you said, like the finance function seems to have evolved a lot over 10 or 15 years, then you will be there when luck actually chooses to smile on you and you’ll be prepared at that time. And finally, maintaining balance in life. So career isn’t the be all and end all and you need to have other things as well. And also, I think it goes back to the long-term thing. I mean, you can’t keep something going, mono maniacally focused on that, excluding everything else and trying to keep that going for so long.

So, thanks a lot, Pallav. I think these are great tips. And it’s a really good distillation of a lot of things that you write on LinkedIn as well. It was a pleasure having you and everyone listening in thank you for joining us today. We were Pallav and Amit with ShopTok. See you next time.