S3E1 – How To Be Curious And Not Judgemental

Transcript: How to be Curious and Not Judgemental

Subha and Hasita invite guests for conversations that will inspire you to know more about a person, an idea, or the work people do. Challenge yourself to listen with an open mind and take away a whole lot (or just a little bit) that will get you thinking about your life, the work you do, and what you can do to be better every day.

Subha Chandrasekaran is an ICF-certified leadership coach with over 21 years of experience (corporate & entrepreneurial) leading people and businesses to explore their potential. Hasita is a marketing strategist who dives deep to create sustainable, results-oriented B2B marketing wins.

Subha: A lot has changed for us this season and for the world around us. And it will reflect across every single episode from now on. So we’re kicking off season three in the third year of the pandemic, and we also want to talk about the new theme of Small Talk.

Be Curious but not Judgemental. 

Subha: And if you’re wondering where that came from, I’m addicted to Ted Lasso on Apple TV. Here’s a bit of a backstory now. Now, Ted Lasso is a guy whom nothing and no one can bring down, and somehow his worth comes from within. And there’s a pivotal scene where his ability to throw darts is assumed to be non-existent. But not only does he land a bullseye, this is what he has to say:

“Guys have underestimated me my entire life. And for years, I never understood why. It really used to bother me. But then, one day, I was driving my little boy to school, and I saw this quote from Walt Whitman painted on the wall. And that said, Be Curious, Not Judgmental. I liked that. So I get back in my car, and I’m driving to work and all of a sudden, it hits me. All of them who used to belittle me, not a single one of them was curious. They thought they had everything figured out.

So they judged everything, and they judged everyone. And I realized that they’re underestimating me and who I was, had nothing to do with me because if they were curious, they would have asked questions. Questions like: Have you played a lot of darts, Ted? To which I would have answered, Yes, every Sunday afternoon at a sports bar with my father from age 10 to 16 when he passed away.”

Hasita: I am judgemental, and I kind of like it, because I feel like judgment, devolved as a way for us to understand the world around us. Cloudy skies, it’s probably going to rain,  sharp teeth, run away from them, bright mushrooms, do not eat. In the social context, I feel like it does hold me back a little bit because I come to conclusions before I’ve had a chance to know more, but it also helps me make decisions faster.

And that’s the bit that I don’t really understand about this goal. How do I be curious when the world is dependent on the speed of my judgment? Particularly, if we see this in the context of the pandemic, we’ve had to make a lot of quick decisions. If someone’s sneezing in a closed room, it doesn’t matter whether they have COVID or they don’t, but I’m leaving.

We just assume, and we move on from there because the cost of not moving on is much higher. And I feel like that’s also true of the workplace at a time when workplaces are changing so rapidly, we ourselves have let go of so many projects. And so many projects have also let go of us. I feel like faster decision-making has helped the world transition faster. So how do we continue to be curious, and rather where is the time to be curious?

Subha: I was having this conversation with someone yesterday that I was definitely a lot more judgmental, maybe in my twenties, through college, and a little later. It was a much more black-and-white view of people and their actions and their behaviors. And I think the way curiosity has shaped that over the years is it’s made me a lot more tolerant before I jump to these judgments about people.

There are judgments about people and their actions, and then there’s judgment and decision-making, which you are talking about. So giving myself that 30 seconds to know more about the context and to ask questions has served me well. A lot of our decisions are based on quick judgment, and it is important.

But when we’re talking about being judgmental, it’s a slightly deeper and larger outlook of how we are letting that person’s action or behavior impact our future interactions with them. Does that make sense?

Hasita: It kind of does. Maybe I am missing the nuance. What exactly is the difference between using judgment as a tool in my toolbox versus just being a judgmental person? How do we draw the line between the two, and how do I get more curious, at least, probably starting with the easier circumstances?

Subha: So I think another way to view curiosity is: a bit of preparation, getting into the mindset of who you’re going to meet or interact with or the situation that you’re going to be putting yourself into. When you hear a new name, especially in the professional context, we look them up and learn their background to get a better sense of who you’re dealing with.

It lets you mentally prepare for the conversation/ interaction you may have with that person, and you can predict or expect what they might be looking for or thinking, depending on their experience or expertise. For instance, if I’m pitching to someone who was in a very stereotypical corporate job, with that information, I could prepare the pitch suited to that person’s view. So, that’s a very simple and straightforward way of using curiosity.

Hasita: That makes sense. We had a pitching conversation yesterday, and towards the end, the person asked if they would be interacting with me directly in the future, which represented their past experience working with external consultants. That was valuable information that shows that the market has had other experiences before and is therefore trying to do things differently and hold people accountable in a different manner.

It would have been easy for me to say someone else would be doing the subsequent interactions, but they are asking for reassurance, and that’s only possible when we take a certain amount of time out to consider the nature of the task.

Subha: I hear what you’re saying, and I think that’s the other aspect of curiosity. Catching the trends in our actions and in the behaviors of those we interact with, looking for patterns. If our last three, four pitches for new business haven’t succeeded, we could start thinking, what was the trend? Why has it failed? What do we need to do differently without being judgmental about the folks we’ve pitched to.

It would be easy to think they weren’t ready for this or they’re looking for a cheaper service. There could be a number of excuses to say it was them and not us. But if we’re curious enough, we would look at the trend and figure out what’s happening there and what can we learn from that. It could be very useful for what comes next.

Hasita: I think it’s like Ted making that statement about himself and choosing to find his worth on the inside and thinking, why am I being seen the way I’m being seen? We have been using judgment as a weapon or as a tool. Do you think flipping it is possible at all? Do you think we can make a habit out of curiosity?

Subha: Definitely. I think the word curiosity may feel heavy and loaded because it seems like you need a lot of time and energy to be extremely inquisitive about someone and everything that they do. What if we think: what are the three questions that I want to solve, and what do I want to get answered out of this- before we do something? Maybe that’s a good starting point.

Hasita: So from the pitching standpoint, I’m thinking of researching the person that I’m going to be talking to and probably researching my pitches. For example, have I customized the pitch for the person I’m talking to? If I was hearing it as an external person, would it still make sense to me? Who else is going to be involved in this decision-making?

How am I appealing to others and sharing my values across the table? Honestly, I usually take 5 minutes to look at the pitch before the meeting, but those would be great things to prepare before the meeting.

Subha: I think there’s an ocean of difference between saying, I’m not going to be judgmental and then going into the meeting unprepared versus trying to realize that they are having a conversation with me for a reason. Maybe they recognize the value I could bring to the table, and I could give them the information they need to make a decision about moving the engagement forward.

Hasita: That’s actually a very powerful perspective to take in general, particularly in high stakes meetings. But I have another question for you because you bring in a lot of corporate experience and you have worked with large teams before. So do you find that the ability to bring curiosity to the table has personally helped you, or have you seen that in action during your corporate life? Would you call that a leadership attribute for the leaders of today?

Subha: A whole-body yes. If I think about moments at work where I derived immense satisfaction at a job well done or a task completed for myself/ team or organization then it has been linked to curiosity. To be able to take a step back to see what’s happening, what’s the pattern and what are our customers saying, etc. When I was running a process shop back at Citi, we had a lot of customer feedback.

If you could take a minute to step back and see what the customers are saying, you’ll get different perspectives on things. For instance, when you have loads of transactions and client calls and one team member is always overloaded with tasks, the fast judgement would be that she doesn’t manage her time or she’s not doing well at her job.

But since there’s a pattern, we started to look, and she was receiving more and more calls and emails from customers because she was good at her job and trusted by them more than other members of the team. So, it’s easy to banter about words like curiosity and judgment, but it does make a difference when you start to take a bit of a step back and look for patterns.

Hasita: And I wanted to ask you, how would you feel if we were to invite many virtual guests into this room? Are you excited?

Subha: Yeah, I’m really excited for the season because I think both of us have also gone a little bit out of our own comfort zone to reach out to new and interesting people in our networks and to really bring out their stories, to inspire and challenge each of us. There’s something to be learned from everyone, and I’m looking forward to having fun conversations and taking some inspiration from them.

Hasita: Sounds like a wonderful plan. And, of course, we are always ready for more Small Talk.

Subha: Always nice chatting with you. Bye.