S3E10 – Building A Sustainable Business, One Toy At A Time With Meeta Sharma Gupta

Discussion Topics – Building a Sustainable Business, One Toy At a Time

• How did Shumee born?
• Unlearning and living with uncertainty
• Handling unfamiliar and new things in entrepreneurship
• Building the team and developing authenticity
• Tips and learnings from women entrepreneurs and Shumee

Transcript: Building a Sustainable Business, One Toy At a Time

Subha: Hi, Meeta, welcome to Small Talk with Rainkraft. So happy to have you here.

Meeta: Hi, Subha, I’m good to be here. Thanks for having me here.

Subha: My pleasure. I think I’ve been a fan of Shumee from day one since we met and watched it grow into something so wonderfully big, I must say. How do you feel? How do you feel if you think about, okay, from where you started to where you are today what’s the first thought that comes to mind?

Meeta: So, I think I feel very grateful Subha. So, I feel grateful for the journey that I have had so far. Because when I started, to be really honest, I did not know how to get where we are right now. But I knew that I wanted Shumee to be a brand, which stands for play and everything good for the little ones in the early years.

And what the scale is going to be, how we are going to get there was not something which I had any clue about but so I’m really grateful to be where we are, grateful for all the love that we have got through the journey from our customers, the vendors that we partner with, from my team, also from everyone that we have associated with. I think that’s what has made this journey very special for me. So, it’s been good.

Subha: Lovely. I think the reason why Shumee came into existence is because it’s pretty clear and compelling. It is something that you have from day one. But as someone who came from such a technical research background at IBM, and you’ve worked in a very different environment, did you plan for this plunge? How did you handle this sudden shift in the kind of work that you’re doing?

Meeta: So, it was a big shift for me Subah, but it was very unplanned because it was something that I knew that I wanted to do. Like I said, I didn’t know how to do it. But I took it as another challenge that okay this is something which can be done. It didn’t look to me, like something which cannot be done at all.

I knew there are things in the ecosystems which exist. For me it was that I know what I want, I will eventually slowly get there and the journey will also take different courses. Because having done that at different points before, I mean, in my life I knew that things cannot always be planned.

So, this was one thing in my life, which I went totally unplanned. But I think yeah, I’ve learned a lot in this whole process. So I just kept learning. I think I’m still learning, there are many things that unfolded for me, which I did not know about or which I did not know that will be things that I need to take care of it but slowly even with the smallest things like I was having a conversation with someone today for exports.

So we do export, but also when we started to export, we said okay, we are exporting, but what all regularisation comes into play, etc, was not something which I even thought existed or we needed to find out. We started doing it. We hit roadblocks, we solve for it. And I think we are in better shape. doing that. So that has been the journey so far, with Shumee that we just keep going.

Subha: Really nice. I’ve seen you do that, I’ve seen you kind of really try and jump into new things for Shumee. And yes, it’s been a process right, just figuring it out. And I think the mindset of, you will find somebody who can help you and you will find a way to solve it. What would you say, what have you really had to unlearn over these past six, seven years now?

Meeta: Yeah, now seven very active years. So I think one thing that I have to unlearn is that it is to live with uncertainty to some extent, like, everything cannot be certain because I mean, prior to Shumee I had done things in life where there was always a chartered reward for it to some extent, but there was a lot of direction from everywhere, processes were put together I mean because those were very well defined processes.

My Ph.D. also I mean, was an uncertain journey, but at least still there was a guide for me overall, who was helping me. Here one thing was that okay, you cannot always be on a guided path.

So that was the big unlearning for me in a way that you have to find solutions and you have to take the uncertain things and that is one thing which I’ve always tried to do is Shumee is that, like try new things because you never know what will work and what will not. I was not such a big risk taker Subha.

So I was not someone who would just do anything. But I think that’s one thing, which I have unlearned, and started doing much more while I’ve been assuming that, let’s keep trying, I mean, you never know what will work or what will not work, we will only learn from it. So that has been something, and we have done many things wrong. We did get the results that we thought we should. But we have enjoyed the process. We have enjoyed doing everything, actually. So at least I have I think.

Subha: No, I’m sure, I mean, I have been on your team so I know we have. And I’m sure all the children playing with all the Shumee toys definitely are enjoying themselves. And even your stakeholders, the kind of folks that you are now interacting with on a day-to-day basis right, manufacturers, artisans, across India, smaller businesses who you may partner with for different reasons. What’s the challenge there that you find or what do you wish you know, I wish this was a little different or a little more organised maybe.

Meeta: Yeah, so I think especially for us being a brand which manufactures so there’s a lot of things which are out of our control in a way or we don’t understand the processes completely. So that sometimes is a little unnerving, because we plan for something and suddenly, we see that there are different things that we do not even know exist.

So those things are there. I think one thing that I felt through this journey was maybe, I mean, though India is a very booming startup ecosystem, I mean, there are so many startups coming up in everything. But we don’t have processes or guidelines very streamlined for startups in the early stages.

I mean, there is no guidance available readily, you have to go and scout for it, or you have to hit that process, or you have to hit that. And then you try to learn. So I really wish that there was something where you know these are the few things you need to take care of, these are the few compliances, these are different things that you need to put together, or these are the agencies, I mean, whatever, there’s an ecosystem out there to help you on that.

So, I feel that it takes a lot of time and effort, especially in the very early stage, right, when you’re just a one-person, or two, or five-person team, so you can’t have everyone with the high expertise on board or everyone who has done it at all the times.

So that way, I think it does get because for no reason you hit a roadblock, which sets you back kind of thing that also happens a lot like, we should not have been a roadblock for you if you would have known it earlier. So those kinds of challenges are there. In the last two years I mean, with COVID definitely, there have been challenges for each one of us in different aspects of life. But as a business also, though, we have grown and thrived in COVID.

Very grateful for that. But I think they were things like, again, the raw material prices, all these are also things which were unexpected things, which we have not planned for. And we cannot help it also. But we have to go with the flow on that. So those kinds of things, when they hit you, and especially when you are not I mean, funding is always a constraint, you have to operate in certain constraints. So those are the stresses that come up in this.

Subha: I think you brought up COVID. Even a simple thing like are you allowed to deliver or not? I mean, toys, most likely won’t be an essential item. But where are they drawing the line and can you continue to take orders in a very, very dynamic kind of environment?

Meeta: Yeah. Because when COVID I mean, the first lockdown, it was uncertain for everyone. Nobody knew what hit us at that point then with that lockdown. So for me also the worry was, how can I support my manufacturing patterns, because we are small, I mean, my manufacturing are also small artisans. And for us also, we needed our supply chain to work.

But we all worked together, and many artisans also supported us a lot in this, but we also tried to support in whatever way because we knew that this has to work, we have to keep going. So those were the things. I realise that when you have something you’re responsible for more than yourself you find a way.

Subha: No, that’s interesting is that you said that there is also a commitment in some way to artisans and manufacturers that you’ve tied up with, that there is a certain amount of business, and probably the expectation is higher when during a difficult time like the pandemic.

Meeta: True.

Subha: Have there been any really strong groups or mentors? Because I hear what you’re saying it’s even in women entrepreneur groups that I’m part of, very often you find that the same questions are asked again and again. Anybody starting out faces similar struggles. And I realised that over the few years that I’ve been in such groups, our answers also have not changed too much.

There’s no structured solution that we are really giving anybody that hey go to this place, you will find the answers do this, do that even something as simple as registering for GST. Each new entrepreneur seems to struggle with something or the other.

Meeta: Yeah, true. Yeah, that’s one big step because you don’t know where to look for these answers. I mean, you will eventually find the answer but it doesn’t warrant so much effort, and certain things are very common to every startup, who would be getting into a startup ecosystem like compliances for, even like GST, anything like there are things that you have to find out. But I think one thing in the last couple of years is that the ecosystem has been growing.

So, there are places you can quickly reach out to or find out. But this is not something that you came to know that I will go and I’ll get everything, you will not. You will have to talk to multiple people, gather that information. I really wish this. I mean, I’m saying this, maybe I should only I mean, there should be someone to do something, at least your learnings, like, you know Shubha like when we were in engineering going for US masters and everything our seniors had a.

Subha: Some playbook right?

Meeta: Yeah. But there’s no playbook as such for startups. And, maybe also because every startup has a different challenge in different spheres. But certain things are still common.

Subha: Correct. Many of us, when we start I have seen that when we are running our own business, or even in a corporate role, we do tend to kind of play to our strengths. Like you said, it’s a more efficient use of time right, doing what you’re already good at. But entrepreneurship puts you into the deep sea in a lot of things that are unfamiliar or new.

And, I continuously hear entrepreneurs say that I do the sales, but I’m not a numbers person, I leave that to my co-founder, my partner, or somebody. So how did you handle that? Or in general, do you find yourself enjoying that new challenge or do you like to outsource it and say, Hey, let me stick to what I like to do, or what I’m good at?

Meeta: I’ve done each one of these. But as we have grown, I’ve started to mean, outsourcing, delegating it, and having others look at it. But in the beginning, you need to get your hands dirty in every aspect, like you need to look at sales, you need to look at marketing. In the initial times, I mean, Facebook ads, I mean, those things are something which I also tried to understand, because if you have to talk to somebody, then you really need to know what it even means.

So those kinds of things. But yes, eventually when you start delegating, you start getting people who have more expertise and know how to take it in a better direction then you would have, but you still need to have that over-level picture, that okay this means this and what they are giving me also stands for this, so that at least you can ask the next level, helping the next level problem solving that whatever needs to be done.

But what I enjoy most is planning the product line, and thinking about the creative aspects. So, I like that part. I even enjoy operations. Marketing, I’m not a very good great marketing person, to be honest. But I have a great marketing team. So, they are doing a good job.

Subha: Awesome. But you’re right, I think you need to know enough to even give them a bit of direction and feel comfortable that now I can let them take it forward because I kind of know what’s happening, right?

Meeta: And one thing also I realised that making a small team, each one of us gives ideas, then it necessarily doesn’t need to be the idea that you have in your own sphere of work. So, I mean, we had discussions where we have had the whole team even discuss branding like this is what the brand is standing to. So all marketing ideas like Subha, you would also have seen that when we had campaigns, we were brainstorming.

We were all having some viewpoint. And I think that level of involvement from everyone also helps like, even in operations when you have any operational difficulty, we have the product team also telling Okay, maybe this can be done differently so that it helps the operations, whatever operational issue that we need to solve for. So I think that’s how we tried to do it because we are a very small team like this. And I think each one, at any point, we have all hands-on boards if required.

Subha: Correct. But, you know, interestingly Meeta, I have repeatedly been telling Hasita, that one of the things when I do speak to Meeta, I want to bring up is that she is such an amazing People Manager. And I used to wonder, I don’t think it’s a label that you’ll probably give yourself, but for many of us who have been associated with Shumee in some way or the other, I used to be really, really amazed at how well you were able to give us our space, in thinking through ideas, even executing them, etc.

And even with that space, make us feel like we just own this brand. And even today, I feel if I see something Shumee, immediately it’s not that it’s another company or a brand, or it’s like, Hey, are we doing something Okay, that we thought comes into my mind, rather than it being something external to me. So where do you think that comes from?

Because you do it in such a pleasant way, you do it in such a subtle way I would say, there is no pressure on your team that I see overtly, there is a lot of freedom to say what you want to say or experiment with things, and to bring in new ideas, and some will work and some will not. But there is somehow with all that a great sense of ownership, that is built in the team. Do you feel that is something that you very intentionally do or is it kind of a result of a lot of things that you do?

Meeta: I’m really happy to hear that you tell me that. Thank you. So, I think Subha one thing, which I’ve always felt and believed is that Shumee is an integral part of the journey. I cannot do anything alone. I mean, it’s always teamwork, we all have to come together.

And for me, I feel that everyone that I have, I’m really grateful for whoever has been a part of this journey from day one, because I, myself have learned a lot. I think I’m always in this learning mode that I am learning from everyone. And everyone has their own strengths.

And I would like to play to everyone’s strengths. Because that’s how we can bring the full thing. I feel that I might have something in my mind, which might not be right. But if somebody else feels any other way, I would really love to hear that. And similarly, the other way around. And that is the only way I think we can keep growing. And I think that’s how we keep trying things also. But it’s not an intentional thing. But I think it’s something which I actually and naturally feel that it’s all of us together that will make this something.

Subha: No, I think that’s how it comes out. The authenticity in how you believe that this is how it should be, I think naturally brings the team together. You mentioned that you love the creative side. And I think as a business owner, now there’s a huge operational side to the business obviously, there is a huge creative side designing these toys, designing new products. And there is also a facet of being up to date in knowing, child psychology, child development, and what kind of toys are good for children.

What do you enjoy the most and kind of part B to how do you sift through so much information that may be out there in terms of just what makes it a good toy?

Meeta: So some of this comes instinctively, sometimes you get this feeling that yes, this makes sense. And this is what you want to do. And I try to listen to that a little bit more than believing that maybe it’s also been a natural style of mine Subha like, I have always dive first, I figured it out, kind of thing without and not the other way around to have the complete knowledge. And then take the next step.

I think that has served me well, figured out things because perfectly knowing the solution sometimes it’s not that you’ll just wait on it forever. I mean, both approaches work, actually, not to say that one is better than the other.

Subha: You’ve crushed all kinds of impressions of a Harvard, Ph.D., and then IBM researcher. Awesome.

Meeta: Yeah, but I think that’s what works for me, it works for me to go in and just start solving it. I think I’m by nature a restless person, maybe because of that if it’s something comes into my mind, I need to do it. I don’t know how it will come out. But I will just go ahead with it. But I think there are many things that happen for us throughout the day and things are very dynamic also sometimes. In some parts, it needs more information or attention than others, which is part of any startup or any there.

As I said, I give a lot of credit to my team here. Each one of them has a lot of ownership in what they do, and they kind of handle it. So there are things but now I have to just step in when I am needed to solve or escalate to any other point of external contact that we need to do. So that is where I do. But that’s how we have been now doing it.

Subha: Nice. So when you guys are designing new toys or thinking about a new product, what is the innovation? Because finally, like let’s say wooden toys, or toys in this range, there is at least we feel that beyond a point, what more would you be able to do? And yet I see new and new ideas.

Like something like your balance boards and the world of boards and the Pikler triangles, they’re all like you said, intuitively, it should be a child’s toy, and it should be built well and made well, but in your mind what is like the next big thing that you’d like to do? Or what does innovation look like?

Meeta: So I think what we have achieved so far is that we have established a strong early-year’s portfolio, where we are known for the toys and the play solutions that we have like in the early years, zero to four. For us, I think now we also want to address and take this further to four plus and beyond, where we keep the play base philosophy because we believe play is a very strong fundamental tool that a child has for learning a lot of things and even for adults.

So we want to see if we can keep expanding this whole sphere of play for the little ones and also beyond the little ones as we do. So that’s one challenge that we want to take up as we move on forward. But I think still even in this zero to four, there are things that we might ask I mean, which excite us sometimes. And we think, Oh, this is something we should also be looking at, or this is a great idea to explore. And then we start doing that.

Subha: I think, while you’re saying that you will go to a slightly older kid I wanted to say that, if you can figure out how to keep preteens and teens of gadgets, right, the funding will just pour in, I guarantee it.

Meeta: Gadgets are all over the place.

Subha: And I think, that’s the charm of your range and what your approach is right, like the whole concept of 90% play and you know that it’s all there, just let the child explore, let the child have fun, let the child enjoy and don’t keep giving them rules and telling them this is how to play and this is how to do something, this is how you should have fun.

Meeta: I think we as adults also would not like to hear that for anything.

Subha: Exactly, but we preach it so easily as parents. Now, speaking of youngsters, I think you have a very young and dynamic team, which is important in terms of the kind of work that you’re doing, keeping a pulse of young moms, and what’s really happening out there in terms of Marketing Trends, etc., etc. How is it kind of putting this team together and growing it and investing time in its growth and development? I’m sure it’s not an easy thing to do.

Meeta: Yeah, so it’s very energising also to see the young folks and how they think. I feel for myself and other generations who are there. So I think from their conversations to understand what is exciting them. So, there also I try to also do is to give them the freedom to explore, because I think that exploration for them also is very important because they need some direction also. I mean, they need to be aligned with what we are having, but I think once you give freedom to somebody, then the alignment starts happening on their own.

So, that is very important and that is what we have been trying to do like, in the team itself, you are engaged with the team like you know, Gauri, me, and we have Riyana also we all try to keep this kind of a flow with the young members of the team that we have. We let them think about what they want to do in this aspect, even if we have to come up with a product line.

So then this is the broader thing, but what would they want to put out there as a product, so that kind of freedom or even in marketing, so individuals, because I think they are full of ideas. So they are things they look at and they have a pulse on what is going on. So to some extent on the marketing or the social media on understanding that part of it. So, it helps to give them the autonomy to think about it.

Subha: I think even your audience, young moms, is slowly becoming newer and newer generations. So what held true for us, where we are the oldies now so what childhood was to us is very different from what childhood was to the moms today. So you have to keep that in mind as an audience.

But a lot of small and medium business owners do face a people challenge, real and true people challenge in terms of hiring the right folks, being able to groom them to really, buy the vision that you have as an entrepreneur as a founder, and then be able to take it forward and kind of invest your time and energy as an employee and grow with that brand.

Any tips for some of those out there who I’ve met repeatedly, ask me if I’m not able to make them stick around, or if am I micromanaging too much. Or am I sometimes then if I let loose, then I’m not giving them enough direction? Like what is that sweet spot? And how do I retain them and get them to really invest in my brand and my business? So I know that autonomy and this freedom have really worked for you, and anything else as kind of tips to other business owners.

Meeta: So, I think, to be honest here also Subha, we have also faced I mean, we do have, like we have had folks who have joined us, left us with different reasons at point, but I think at that point, you have to be ready because everyone is on their own journey at some point. I mean, you can only do what you can do by giving them an environment in which they thrive. But there are different reasons why this also happens.

But for us one thing that we have tried to do while even hiring is to look at the attitude, I mean, more than skill, I think it’s the attitude that matters, you might not have the 100% skill that you need for that position. But if you have the right attitude that’s okay, this excites me or this is something I’m willing to learn and would be an effort.

And I think that kind of hiring has helped us. And I think that also brings out the excitement for them because they are also learning a few things, they are coming and it’s something exciting for them over there.

But then you need to have that attitude. I think over these years I have learned that the most important, skill is also important but the most important is judging by the attitude of that person who is coming into your organisation that you will know that and at any point if they need to move on then I think that is something which one has to also embrace and take it in that, but unlike maybe what we were also in the young time where we knew that okay, we have with this organisation, we will look for it for a little longer haul.

I think for the younger generation now there are lots of options going around and I think it is something, but as long as when they are with you, and if they have the right passion that they’re working with you, I think that’s how at least at that point, you can enjoy that relationship.

Subha: I think graciously letting go is also important because they will find newer ideas to chase. And it’s their journey too, but when they’re with you if they have that attitude, which suits the kind of work that you want to do and then work with that and grow with that. So, I caught you saying restless once.

So, is there another idea brewing, is there one more business that you’d like to kind of start, or do you see? Where do you see Shumee in a few more years? What would be the ideal outcome for Shumee in a few years?

Meeta: Because there are so many ideas that come to one mind like yesterday itself with Priya, I was discussing that these are the different things that we can possibly do. And that makes you restless also, because you want to do everything like you want to just go out and try all the different possibilities that you are seeing at any point, but again, you have to pick one and go after it like there might be we can do that.

So, we are at a point where we are seeing a lot of possibilities that we can possibly take as the next point in time. And I am hoping that we are able to understand which one excites us more than we can go towards that. But in the long term, I would see Shumee, my vision with Shumee is to be the brand that comes through your mind when you think of play in India in the early years, especially because we want to be synonymous with play, with everything good for your child. And not only in India, also I would like it to be a brand out of India, for the world. So that thing, but let’s see how this goes.

Subha: No, I think you’ve made significant progress there. I mean, Shumee today is available across the globe, in that sense, and I think that’s a lovely vision to chase that to be just so synonymous with play, that young families and young mothers think of Shumee immediately when you’re thinking of what to bring home for your child. And finally, you’re in the toy business.

So what is fun for you? What do you guys do for fun, even the creative journey of maybe designing and testing a toy itself must be a lot of fun. So what brings fun to the Shumee team and to you?

Meeta: We have a lot of fun playing with our own toys. So I mean, the new product itself, I think, which we are trying to be, we all tried it out, we have a lot of suggestions and alterations that we have for each other. And I think this is everything because we find, I don’t know, maybe I’m the biggest fan of my own products.

But I like everything that we do Subha, so even like each and every post we put out on social media and packaging changes we do anything that excites each one of us, and I’m really grateful to see that in my team also like we feel happy about what we’re doing, whatever the results in terms of anything that anyone else cares about it’s the other thing is not in our control, but we kind of enjoy seeing what we bring up, what comes out of Shumee I think that really excites us.

So we are hoping to bring out a board, we have tested it so many times and we have enjoyed it every time that we have retested it. So those kinds of things really excite us.

Subha: So I think you were starting to talk about the board game when we lost the audio.

Meeta: So we have a board game coming out soon. It’s a space base theme and I think we have tested it so many times even in the office, and every time, it’s very exciting, each one of us enjoys it, and has so many inputs to give. So, all these small things are fun elements that we do.

But as a team, also, we try to do different fun things together being a small team, and now because of COVID we are even smaller, but we try to at least engage in one team-building activity every few weeks where we try to do something together. Because I think that’s the only way you can bond also beyond work. And being a small team that’s very important I guess.

Subha: So true. And, I know that your biggest fan from the early days have been your two boys, and they’ve been fans, guinea pigs, Ad models, everything rolled into the two of them. So how are they enjoying this journey? Or is it now like, Okay, this is mama’s business and it’s not something that they jump into as much as they used to?

Meeta: They enjoy, but yeah, I mean, in the early days, it was a different experience altogether for them, because they were part of everything we did. And anything new that we do, they try to understand what is happening, and they are very blunt if they like it. So for example, again coming back to this board game I mean, they were so blunt with their feedback. I mean, I felt scared telling my team that okay, the first level of feedback, but I think that did help change a few things.

But they’re like, Okay, this won’t. And now they also understand different aspects. So, my younger one is hoping to be here with us as a marketing intern soon because he thinks he has great ideas that he wants to give us. And so, I think they still love part of it, but in a different way. I think they are also evolving in their own thought process but yeah.

Subha: But I agree with you. I love the way kids also grow with our business. And they start to understand the different aspects of you know, there’s marketing, there’s finance, and there’s running the day-to-day. It’s, I think, amazing exposure when somebody in the family is running a business like this for the kids it’s an amazing exposure.

Meeta: Yeah, true. They get to see it firsthand. They get to understand what the challenges are also because everything isn’t as rosy as it looks on the external side. You see the real struggles also.

Subha: I think it makes all of us that much more empathetic to other businesses that we interact with or services that we get right that yes things can go wrong sometimes, or everybody’s probably trying their best behind the scenes. And, we’ll give it one more shot.

Meeta: True. I think you’re very right even for me I think after doing this, I become so empathetic towards brands also Subha you understand. They are trying to put their best foot forward. They may falter at different points, but nobody is there to just do something really bad. I mean, they are trying their best.

Subha: Great. So, all the best to Shumee. I really miss our days of brainstorming on limited resources and trying to figure out what we can put out there and then reminding ourselves that probably the moms today are literally younger than me. And we need to step into their shoes and figure out what’s new and exciting.

But I think the Shumee journey while working with you and now watching from the sidelines continues to be an exciting one. So, I wish each of you all the very best and will keep a lookout for new and innovative stuff from the Shumee’s table.

Meeta: Thank you Subha. I really enjoyed having you with us, when you were working with us over here. And I do miss it too. But I’m hoping sometime again, our paths will cross and you will be back with us. But thank you for all the good wishes and it’s always good to know there is a friend looking out for you.

Subha: Definitely, always. Thank you so much for your time.

Meeta: Thank you so much. Bye.

Subha: Bye.