S4E6 | What To Do When Your Manager Needs Managing

So you’ve expanded your team and yet you find yourself having to defer important things to handle day-to-day questions? The answer might lie less in behaviour and more in process.

Discussion Topics: What To Do When Your Manager Needs Managing

• Setting up processes
• Avoiding micromanagement
• Why modeling behaviour alone will not enable delegation
• The value of HR expertise
• How to help your managers take more ownership

Transcript: What To Do When Your Manager Needs Managing

Subha: Welcome to another episode of Small Talk with Rainkraft podcast! So have you come out of 400 plus pages of Prince Harry and gotten back to work Hasita?

Hasita: I have Subha, I have gotten back from 400 pages of Prince Harry to 400 things on my to-do list. And I can’t quite tell which of the two was, and sometimes it feels like I’ve booked my calendar. I start with good intent, there are probably two things, three things, important things that I know I should be working on. And then I keep adding things to it. And I keep adding things to it. And by the end of it, it’s like a race against time all the time. And I don’t know, firstly, why am I adding these things to the calendar mainly because they need to get done, and somebody has to do it, I think. But at the same time, it’s not a very nice feeling to be there day in and day out. Sometimes I’ve cancelled things that I know are far more important just to kind of keep up sometimes with the workload.

Subha: I hear you, and I’m going to call it I think the Prince Harry problem because I’m hearing it from a lot of founders and managers of teams and people just like you, where it’s taking time to recognize that there is a problem. And by the time you recognize it, a bit of it has piled up, it’s kind of accumulated and become a slightly bigger problem than it needs to be because fundamentally, you’ve done the right things, you’ve added people, you’ve augmented your team, you’ve added capabilities so you should not have 400. You should have 200 things to do.

Hasita: That is true. And I had actually not considered that because in my mind, the whole idea of scale was that you kept doing more and more stuff because that’s how you grow. But I do see where you’re coming from. I mean, now that I see, look at the task list, there are probably a few things that I shouldn’t be doing at all, actually. But then that also kind of brings up the question of how do I get started with this process? Like, sometimes you have hired, you have folks on the team, and with the best intent, and I know for a fact that everyone’s kind of setting out to the right thing. But somewhere, we are all not achieving our full potential. So is that a problem? Or is that just how things work? Or like, even for me to say, Hey, this is what’s wrong, how do I even kind of start untangling that?

Subha: Yes, I hear you. So let’s untangle this Prince Harry problem. The key to it Hasita, is acknowledging that there is a problem, which makes it sound very negative, I think it’s acknowledging that there is a situation to solve, and unless as a founder, as a team leader, as a senior manager, unless I acknowledge it and say, hey, if I don’t start setting up the processes early on then I’m going to end up in a situation where I’m spending my time on too many things, which shouldn’t require my time and attention.

I’m faced with a team where they are just not taking accountability for some of these decisions that need to be made you know, in a running machine, they need to be made day in and day out. So they’re happy to say, Hey, boss, take the decision, tell us what to do. It kind of reminds me or makes me think about those crime scene situations where you see a couple of beat cops, and then a detective walk in and says, Hey, you canvass the neighbours and you look at street cams, and you do this, and you do that, and each episode I’m wondering, but that’s their job they know that that’s what they have to do. And probably law and order it’s more of you know, there’s a hierarchy and you have to be told to do it. But even in simple organisations, you have a bunch of people who are always waiting for the instructions.

Hasita: Right. In fact, that also reminds me of instances where I think I’ve also practised that a bit and it has been practised on me as well, is just that I think the enforcing of certain rules that probably don’t need enforcing, like, asking people to get on a call at nine o’clock or show faces from nine to five, somewhere, I’ve begun to realise that that’s a sign of a much bigger problem, and that’s that people are not feeling empowered enough to be able to do what they need to do.

And that’s why I think as leadership sometimes there’s also that temptation to say, okay, at least if they’re in front of me, I know that they’re up to something good. So, yeah, maybe that’s how you know you’ve got a problem and you’re right. I mean, calling it a problem is probably taking it a little too far because I’m sure it’s part of a journey for every rowing organisation, because we start out as a one-person or a two-person team, and then you build over a period of time. And in doing that, it’s not always necessary that everyone comes with managerial experience.

So a lot of us have been promoted to those roles, because we’ve been good at the execution function. And now that we are here, and Subha, you’ve spoken about first time managers on the Rainkraft blog in the past as well. What do you do? You know, you have a lot of hopefully enthusiastic people who are now finding themselves in shoes that they are not maybe ready to fill immediately. So what is the leader, or rather the manager of those managers expected to do in a circumstance like that?

Subha: See, firstly, the acknowledgment that we spoke of, it makes you relook at some of the knee-jerk reactions. And they have been just like what you said, I’ve heard from quite a few founders recently, who have come up to me and said, Hey, it’s not working, I’m knee-deep into many things. It’s taking up too much of my time, they aren’t taking up the accountability or ownership. And hence, what did I do? I said, Hey, you have to come to work every day, I need to see everybody, no more work from home, that is the root of all evil. Now, if you come in, and sit in front of me you will become more accountable. That’s not going to work. Fundamentally, you’ve not set the ground rules for them to behave in the way that you are expecting.

So somewhere, you need to find someone to own that people function and to even guide you as the CEO or founder or team leader to say, Hey, these are some things that have to be done. You have to own the effort that each of you is putting into this, you can’t just own the outcome. Because many times why the founders are not raising this as an issue, because they’re busy solving the business problem and the business is moving along fine.

It’s like, you know, despite all of this, in spite of all of this, I’m doing okay. Somewhere, it finally comes together. And even though we kind of really struggled through it, or it took a lot more out of me than it needed to let me not think about it now, because we got the outcome we needed.

Hasita: Yeah, and I was just thinking, you know, bearing in mind what you just said, if things are working fine, or at least, closest to what could be described as fine. But you have that sense that maybe it’s not all okay. So is it okay then to assume because we are modeling certain behaviours on a daily basis, and we are coming to work and we are showing people what is expected?

Is that not enough for people to draw their own conclusions from and kind of try and model the same behaviour? Is it too much to expect that this is actually a problem that can be resolved over a period of time?

Subha: I think that’s a very important question that you asked because time, and again, I have to remind leaders that this is not going to go away with time. It’s not that, okay, he or she came in a little bit raw, they’ve been with us for a couple of years and now miraculously would be a better people manager or a better manager of their function. So it’s not going to self-heal. I think you have to invest in setting up some of these processes.

So how you do that is where I say, okay, there has to be somebody accountable for that person’s function. And if you are a founder CEO, then it’s best to bring in somebody to do that. And today, you have so many options, whether it is full-time or a consultant or even like an HR-for-hire kind of structure, you have many ways to do that.

If you are managing within a large organisation, then while you have the support of a very detailed HR function, you need to do a lot of the thinking through, you need to do that but remember, you’re not doing it 100% you do have support, you do have typically somebody in training and somebody in recruitment and somebody in just general HR, so you have it with you. And so coming back to your question, yes role modeling is the way to go. If you want certain behaviours to be demonstrated, definitely you need to demonstrate them yourself, but you can’t assume that, in a way, every passerby is going to pick that up.

Hasita: I do get what you’re saying. But if I had to quantify it, and if I had to say, Okay, if I do this for an X amount of time, then I can expect to see Y outcome. I think that usually has a tendency to make a lot of these things easier, because at least you know, you’re working towards a time-bound goal. So what can someone set out to do say that, you have a team of 10, 15 people, suddenly, half of them are managers.

And I understand what you mean that you may be modelling a lot of behaviours, but the interpretation that each person is taking away could be vastly different, they could be coming to very different conclusions based on what they’re saying. So what kind of goals can I set for the system, for the people, for myself, even sometimes, as the manager of the managers?

Subha: So I think to start with, ask your managers, have that conversation, saying, Hey, what are the challenges that you’re facing? If I had to hear it from your point of view, because I know what problems I’m facing like, do they even see it? Or what are they seeing? Where are their set of constraints coming from? And say in terms of a goal over the next six months which ones are you going to solve for because it requires your own time and attention, and which ones do you think need a larger solution for the system. So a set of goals could emanate from that.

You could have a manager who says, Hey, I think I have not identified the right person for the right thing, and I need to delegate better, or I need to manage my own team better, or I need to just sit down with them and give them the clarity because see you can role model, but unless you tell the other person, what behaviours you are expecting from them, they are just going to be a bystander and saying, hey, wow, you’re great at this. Thank you.

So the conversation with your key team, I think, is a great starting point. And it will give you certain goals in terms of what processes and systems that you need to invest in. And I’m sure one of the key processes and systems that you need to really take ownership of setting up is performance management. 9 out of 10 employees, if you ask them, do you get feedback? They usually say no because they are expecting some kind of formal communication, in some kind of review, some kind of assessment. Otherwise, it’s just me and my manager…

Hasita: It’s a daily exchange of messages and emails.

Subha: He said, good job done, it’s not registered as feedback. I mean, you and I can go on about feedback for hours which we will do later. It’s not registered in any constructive way as to what to take away from it and what to do next. It’s just information. So take ownership of that performance management piece definitely. And that’s a big enough task as it is. And somewhere you have to build in early on time to define what are the competencies that you want in your people. Each business is going to survive on different competencies.

Some are very, very customer focused, some are very, very innovation and product creation focused, some are very operations focused, and some need a bit of all, but do your people know what those key competencies are needed for a good job, and if I say be customer-centric, what does it mean to your salesperson, what does it mean to your HR person, what does it mean to your developer on the team. You never got to see a customer ever as far as USP is concerned. When I don’t see the customer, I come to sit and code.

So what is being customer-centric mean to each of these, what are the behaviours that you’re expecting from them if this is something that is kind of an overarching competency that you want the entire organisation to have? So early on, invest in identifying what you want.

Hasita: Fair enough. And I think what I’m really taking away is that maybe beyond a point, the same things that got us from A to B often have a tendency not to take us from B to C, perhaps. And maybe it’s just part of the growth journey and we need to accept that as well and that’s the difficult transition also I think, for a lot of us, because we’ve been in the business of managing a lot of systems, but now I think it’s becoming, being invested in managing the growth of people, or rather, investing in the growth of people, which is a completely different job, actually.

So I think, maybe even making that job description clear to ourselves, to say that, yes, the system-level responsibility will invariably rest with us. But how we grow is no longer about how we do things, but how everybody does the many different things that they’re supposed to do. So maybe that is a promotion in itself. It’s a completely different job and a different role. So it’s a good thing to accept, I guess.

Subha: What you’ve said now is really something overarching that you need to be ready for is to create time to be available for this group that you are grooming, mentoring, be accessible, let them come with their stupid problems and queries in the interest of putting the system in place. And say Hey, what do we do here, what do we do there, and you’re kind of brainstorming together, you’re coming up with a solution together, you are clearly indicating what’s okay with you, what’s not okay with you or for the company. Be available for those conversations definitely.

Hasita: Right. Fair enough. No, that’s actually quite valuable. And maybe it’s time to kind of shuffle up the calendar a bit. And maybe not put every little and big thing on it, because the role has changed. And I’m sure it will take me a while to accept that. But no better day to begin than today, I suppose. So might as well get started. And I really liked what you said about setting that time aside to have some of those conversations. I think being approachable and accessible is something that I have appreciated so much in the people that have managed me in the past. So maybe it’s my turn to give back and that can definitely be an exciting journey to be on.

Subha: Oh, definitely. And you’re nothing but blessed if you’ve had a good manager in your life, honestly.

Hasita: So true. Might as well as behaviours out of those few people who actually know what they’re doing so yeah. So much appreciation for them.

Subha: Thanks, folks, for joining in. Catch you next time. Let me go back to my Prince Harry audiobook. Thank you.