S4E7 | It’s Not Always About The Money!

“I gave her a raise, yet she left.” Dual careers and an increased appreciation for work-life integration sparked during the pandemic have made employees think about work more broadly than just a pay packet. Employers need to foster more honest conversations with their employees in order to keep them.

Discussion Topics: It’s not always about the money!

• Money is not the only motivator
• There are multiple factors at play, mostly very personal
• People’s work-related desires have changed and employers need to adapt
• Employers need to chart a roadmap for the employee
• Employees should communicate their needs more holistically

Transcript: It’s not always about the money!

Subha: Welcome to another episode of Small Talk with Rainkraft podcast! Another week of such a wide variety of stories across LinkedIn Hasita. I mean, the lay off season unfortunately continues. And also, I’m seeing a lot of folks just trying to optimise opportunities, I think, you know, looking to move for a better pay package, especially kind of seeing it as Okay, let me make the most of any good opportunities out there, where I can genuinely just add to that nest egg because God knows the bad turn may be just around the corner.

Hasita: Yeah, and I empathise with that mindset as well, because a lot of the news about being laid off is coming suddenly and quickly. But plans are not sudden and quick, like we would have built careers in a certain place, or we would have had a certain vision for how long we might want to stay at, whichever company we’re working at and the moment I think that certainty goes out, it doesn’t matter whether layoffs have happened, or they haven’t, but the fact that they’re happening around in the industry, in the domain, I’m sure it makes a lot of us question where we are, and that kind of upheaval always has a tendency to make us want to make other choices, choices that feel safer, choices that feel better.

And I do think that maybe money is definitely one of the bigger ones that makes itself very evident as well, so usually a pay hike or a promotion now, these are things that are typically seen as socially acceptable ways of moving from one place to the other. But is that all? I mean, do we really move only for that, because I do hear instances of folks who move for work, to me seems like a very marginal increment for the kind of skill set or for the kind of experience the kind of job that they’re being now asked to do what they’ve been offered is probably a very small differential increment and still they’ve made that choice. So sometimes I wonder if it’s really just the money, or is there something else to it.

Subha: No, more and more, I’m convinced and I think it’s a reality that it’s just not about the money. I think in 9 cases out of 10, maybe the external story, or the easy narrative, is that I moved for the money or there is a bigger place, and hence, there’s an assumption of better pay, etc. But I think the underlying like you’re saying is a lot of other things. So let’s spend a little bit of time saying, Okay, it’s not always the money, then what is it?

Hasita: Yeah, what is it indeed?

Subha: No, it definitely is so many other things. What struck me as or rather filled me with a lot of empathy for the person, I was doing an exit interview. And he said, I was ready for a pay cut. Why was I laid off? And he was genuinely happy with the work he was doing, in the environment that he was in, he felt he was contributing. And he said, if just someone had had that conversation with me saying, Hey, we’re going through difficult times, then we could have worked out something different.

Hasita: And I’m just thinking in the context of what you just said, sometimes the loss is so much bigger than the short term gain, and I do understand the need for some of these decisions to be made. But what I’m really understanding is that people like these people who’ve been around for a while, maybe their motivation is not the financial reward that comes at the beginning of the month. Maybe it’s that loyalty, it’s that sense of community.

Subha: Yeah, that how much you’re learning, how much you’re growing, how much you just kind of happy to work with the people that you’re working with and the output that you’re producing I think it goes back to a book that we both really enjoyed, “The Psychology of money” and how, for most of us, or rather for each of us our relationship with money is extremely unique. Our mental models come from our stories, our lived experience. And even in our conversations Hasita, like, we have very diametrically opposite views when it comes to money.

Hasita: Right. Yeah, that’s the conversation I always look forward to running away from so.

Subha: And I truly believe that actually, for all of us, money is a sub motivator. It’s not the Prime. While it could seem like our decisions are made money based our decisions are actually made by the stories that we are telling ourselves about what is guiding me about money and its importance or its relevance or how I should treat it or how I should come to expect it. And a lot of it is because of the environments in which we’ve grown up, how we’ve seen our parents deal with money, their challenges, struggles, successes, and that’s why I guess in every very pure money conversation my story doesn’t make sense to you and your story doesn’t make sense to me at a broad level, right?

Hasita: Yeah, so true. And also, it just kind of makes me also think about, sometimes when we’ve said yes, or no to certain opportunities in whatever positions, I think the most evident reason we give ourselves is money driven, like, we say, hey, he’s either paying more or Hey, he’s just not paying me enough to do this.

So that’s typically one of the two. But if I really look at some of those decisions, I can definitely see bigger factors at play, like a sense of autonomy, for example, or wanting a new adventure, or being somebody who enjoys a new challenge from time to time, is probably a much bigger driver than money is, it is just that it’s easy to explain a money based decision, and therefore you make it.

Subha: Correct. When it’s a money based decision, you’re right, it’s easier to tell somebody why you came to that decision, and you don’t have to get into your childhood, and all the feelings and emotions associated with money. Today, I mean, I call myself a business woman.

But I think from a mindset perspective, I’m not really there yet, I’m still the daughter of a public sector employee, and then I went on to have a very stable career in a bank, a well-paid career, and well paid enough that after a few years, that no longer mattered, because, you know you’re always going to be taken care of, you know you’re always as good as the market is, and I realised that because of that, even internally, I didn’t ask for some of the things I should have asked for and that’s a whole different topic, but probably what some of my male colleagues were asking for or negotiating better for, because it just didn’t become a factor or didn’t continue to be a factor at all.

And now in business, the concept of that you have to invest in the business to get returns, that’s still something that I’m learning, you know, that I need to, let’s say, invest or spend in making this podcast for what is right now, no monetary returns, the returns are humongous in so many other ways, in terms of the community, we’re building and the people who are reaching out to us, but it’s still an investment, without tangible returns maybe or invest in digital marketing, but it will take you six months to one year. And, by the way, listen to the Damn Good Marketing Podcast while you’re at it, but you will get the returns.

Hasita: But I must say, I mean, for someone whose primary driver is not money, and it’s not something that’s kind of Top of Mind, the decisions to invest that you’re making right now you’re doing it with a lot of grace so definitely, I think, as you said, you’re learning and you’re doing it really, really well. It also kind of makes me think about priorities. And when we have a team of four people, five people, even everybody’s priorities are going to be different, and sometimes we can’t, or we don’t also answer very openly the question of what we are looking for in a certain situation.

So when you’re interviewing, typically, I think, the hidden meaning behind some of the questions like, where do you see yourself in five years, which is one of the episodes we did, really, I think what the person on the other side is asking is, do you intend to continue here? Like, what is your larger game plan, like what’s going on in your mind. And it’s very difficult for even the person being interviewed to really articulate and say, Hey, if you give me a 10% hike every year, I might stay, fair enough, right?

I mean, I would stay if I got like a 15 20% hike every year, God knows I’ll be like, where I’m needed. But also things like, I want to work with teams that are a lot like me. Now, that’s a lot harder to articulate, like, how do I describe teams that are a lot like me, for example, or even to say, every year I expect to be recognized for some of the work that I’m doing so I think some of these intangibles, I’m sure also come into the picture, like, for a very close relative of mine, I know that it was about the pride of being promoted.

So as long as they were promoted every year it meant something. And therefore, somebody who’s having to make these decisions of do I see these people in my system five years from now, how do you decide what kind of rewards, recognition, what kinds of things will really keep people motivated throughout.

Subha: No, I think it’s definitely a challenge for those of us who are building teams and running organisations because even the context of these money stories have changed so much. I think, for us, it was, we saw world events, is it recession time, is it boom, time, war time, is it stable, and then we saw, okay, what are family events like, how much does the family need, but now, the thinking is a lot different one, it’s a lot more independent, like, what do I need, in some way because the number of earning members have also gone up in that ecosystem, so the burden is not just upon one person in the family and hence, decisions are made in a certain way, two the kind of opportunities available, have also changed immensely.

So you don’t have to sign up for a job for eternity. And you don’t have to even sign up for a kind of job or industry in the sense that you could be a journalist today and a podcaster tomorrow, and then a home baker, and then open up your own baking outfit a few years later. So that kind of ability to jump careers, that itself is something new to the previous generation.

So all of these are definitely contributing to what an employer needs to think about. And hence, I think the first thing to really think about is are you giving the individual or are you recognizing this changing dynamic, that this work, and life is genuinely a blend now, much as we are saying, hey, everybody come back to the office, individuals have recognized that they want to take charge of different parts of their life, my health, the ability to take care of my parents, the ability to travel to see ailing relatives, the ability to be part of my children’s growing up in a much, much more involved manner.

Like I want all of this in my life, because I’ve tasted it a little bit during the last few years. And I realised that I was missing it, or I realised that, okay, this is how I should be living. So the employer also has to be cognizant of that and say, what am I allowing for? So the same blanket rules of coming to the office at nine go by six, catch the office bus is missing, it’s not working. There’s a lot of pushback to saying you can’t have that weekend gig or you can’t do something else. Fair, in some ways, it depends on what exactly is that other gig that you’re doing. But all of this has to be part of the experience that you’re giving your team members.

Hasita: Which is why I think maybe even clearer descriptions on what is expected from each individual probably helps, and also at the individual level itself, some of these drivers are so evolving, like today, I may want X, Y and Z, tomorrow, I may want A, B and C.

And that’s just me being human. It’s not that suddenly my priorities have changed it’s just I’m experimenting with different things and every year I have different priorities and therefore, if my workplace is able to, I think give me more clarity on what exactly it is, that’s expected of me, to the extent possible, I guess that’s the segue that’s possible, right? I mean, we can’t obviously customise, especially at scale things like rewards, like it’s not possible to give one a promotion and another a raise and that causes its own like that’s a Pandora’s box of its own.

Subha: No true. You have to look at what else you’re doing apart from just the money because either one, like you said, you can’t afford money being the key driver in all of your people’s decisions because one you just can’t afford it. You don’t have the budgets and the wallet for it. And two the more important thing that we’re talking about today the employee is not seeing it as important or the most important thing. When it’s not about the money for the employee, then you throw that money at them while they’re going to take it. I mean, nobody’s going to say no. But then you still feel like, oh, you know, I’m feeling betrayed, I gave the raise and still, he or she left.

So like you said, it’s that career roadmap that you are defining is becoming more and more important. And don’t go 10, 20 years later, you will be a general manager here, but say, okay, now today, you need certain functional training, what are they?

Can we assign a mentor for you, can we assign a buddy for you, can you figure out what else you can be doing or what’s the next couple of roles that you want to chalk out for yourself within this organisation, and get the interaction with people who’ve been there, done that, as mentors, as seniors and figure out what you need to add to your skill set to get there, because the employee genuinely wants that, they want to be able to chalk out their own career roadmap, or at least open the doors and show me what all exists.

Hasita: Yeah, I think having that choice, you’re absolutely right. Because as much as I think we all think about it as one company, one unified view, everybody is bringing to it a different perspective of what they are observing on a daily basis. So I think full visibility is not a thing that organisations actually do have. And maybe in that context, exactly, knowing that, hey, these are my options, and these are things that I can possibly contribute towards.

And finally, it really does come down to that I think we all want a sense of purpose, in whatever scale and magnitude, like, whatever we do, I think we all look to do a good job, I’d like to believe that that’s the case. And I think we all want to be seen and appreciated for that job that we did. So whether that comes in the form of a word, feedback, learning opportunities, money, all of these things are expressions of, I think, a larger need that we all fulfil through the context of work.

Subha: Correct. The reward and recognition, you know, emails, crediting folks who have played apart, having small events, having large events, recognition and reward in different shapes and sizes, and not just monetary, because at some point in the monetary, it’s not even easy to share with others, like, if you got a monetary reward in terms of a raise, and then I’ve heard of instances where the boss has to say, but don’t tell anyone, and then you’re like, Okay, now, what do I do with this?

So making time for those career conversations is really becoming important, because the word career has just taken a life of its own, you have to understand, you know, does the person want more autonomy, do they want more creativity, or the ability to be creative, or maybe somebody just wants more structure, you tell me exactly the output you want and the things that I can do to get it and, you know, the lack of ambiguity, and the stability in the place is what I appreciate.

So each person is going to come at it from a very different angle bases, their skill sets and their experience. And I think having that conversation and identifying what makes that person tick, is very important. Not assuming that it is always the, okay, when I get desperate, I’ll give a raise. I don’t think that that’s really going to work, at all.

Hasita: Makes a lot of sense, I think, time for a rethink, I think on both sides, right? Both the employer side of things, which is to say, Okay, if I have all of these people with varying priorities as on date, how do I bring them all into the common fold, you know, in that sense, and also understand and accept that maybe I will not have control over a large part of their life, that’s not the job here.

And then for also the employee side, maybe to also get clear, for example, there is a larger conversation here around if there are four things that the company is offering, but they’re still not making me happy, then maybe I’m meant for a different kind of role, or I’m meant to be doing something else, which is also a fair enough conclusion to come to. Keeping that channel of communication open on both sides, I’m sure will be a lot more helpful.

Subha: No, it’s true even from an employee perspective you know, have those conversations initiate them. Maybe your manager is kind of lost in a world of other challenges and this is not kind of hit their line of sight yet, but go and have or initiate that conversation saying, Hey, I am not fully here for this this reason, so what can we do about it, and help them be part of that process to change maybe the kind of work you do, the kind of people you interact with, the kind of output that you’re generating, or even how you’re being recognized and rewarded.

But yeah, you’re right some of it, you have to vocalise for yourself. Nobody is a mind reader, and you have to call it out. At least in today’s environment, everybody is willing to hear that other view. Think about workplaces, 15, 20 years back, while we were getting there, it was still Hey, but this is who we are. And this is how we do things. And so it’s for you to fit in. These are the roles we have, it will take you three years for your next promotion. Like, when we entered the bank, it was like Hey, it will take you seven years minimum to make VP or it will take you X years to make something that’s how it is. But today, a lot of that has become so much more flexible.

Hasita: Yeah, and still to lay out the rules, or whatever the rules might be, you know, they could be organisation specific, they could be industry specific. And to say, this is how it’s going to be, and then the rest is up to you. I mean, you’re also kind of free to make the choice in terms of where you want to be headed with that.

So yeah, lots to think about and take away I think in terms of how we receive the reward and recognition that we do get. And that’s really all it comes down to, like all of these expressions of recognition are just that, it’s whether you call it a promotion, you call it a raise, you call it being clapped, in a meeting with 200 people, I think finally, it all comes down to being seen and being heard on both sides.

Subha: Very true. I think ultimately, yes, money is important, but it is one of the forms of reward recognition that an organisation can use and you have to have to explore all of the others and you have to be mindful that that individual’s Money Story is something you have no clue about. So you have no point making assumptions, you can only learn more about it as you have these conversations. But otherwise it’s just unfair to think of money as the one way to handle all of your employee troubles. Cool another good money conversation Hasita, something that we both enjoy don’t we?

Hasita: No, we do not, but here we had and I think it’s getting better relationship with money is definitely getting better.

Subha: So as you can see, there’s another story there and another episode there too. Bye, guys.