ST19 | Making The Transition From Corporate Leader To Consultant

Ever wondered what you’ll do once you achieve all that you want in your career? Is it then time to fade into the sunset and ease into a life of leisure? Or do you feel like you’re up for new challenges? Well, if you’re one of those for whom a single innings isn’t enough, you’ll love this episode. Arvind Sankaran, an engineering graduate from Birla Institute of Technology and Science, Pilani, and a master’s degree holder from Indian Institute of Management, Calcutta, had finished his 1st innings successfully, serving in the banking industry in various positions across the globe. With immense knowledge at his disposal, he did something extraordinary-when most people would look at retiring, he began his 2nd innings. With the zeal to offer value to businesses and in the process of rediscovering and living his passion, Arvind is now a successful advisor who provides strategic direction to businesses across different fields of operation and industries.

Discussion Topics: Making the Transition from Corporate Leader to Consultant

• Utilising your experience to serve in a different role
• How you’re perceived in the industry
• Communicating your service offering
• Pricing your offering
• Growing your service business
• Picking your area of expertise
• Sustainability in difficult times
• Importance of a support system

Transcript: Making the Transition from Corporate Leader to Consultant

Amit Ray: It might be a dream to build a level of expertise that allows you to quit your job, and work as an Independent Consultant. More often than not, these kinds of opportunities tend to be on the freelance side, where you’re paid for your time, working on specific outsource tasks or projects. But if you’re a seasoned leader or someone with substantial experience, such hands-on work might not really be a fit for you.

What might work instead would be an advisory role, where you get to offer the benefit of your vast experience to growing companies at a strategic rather than an execution level. But is this a service anyone wants? And what are the trade-offs and challenges that you need to be prepared for and most important, are you really cut out for the kind of life such a change would entail?

Today, we are pleased to have with us Arvind Sankaran, Fintech investor, operator, and advisor, who will share with us his journey from corporate leader to growth company advisor. But more importantly, he’s going to share with us his learnings over the past seven years of charting his own non-corporate path. So Arvind, thank you so much for joining us today. Maybe before we get going, would you like to give us a brief overview of your past career, and your journey as an investor and an advisor so far?

Arvind Sankaran: Thanks Amit, for having me on the show. Real pleasure and very happy to see you build out your own portfolio of work seems like a super exciting set of activities. And good luck with that. Looking back at my own career, like you said, seven years ago, I stepped away from my career as a banker, and I had spent the previous 26 years in banks, global banks around the Asia Pacific, as well as Europe.

And since then, I’ve been active across a set of engagements, which actually have brought me pretty closely involved in the Fintech space in Southeast Asia and India, both as a board advisor where I bring my operating experience to help founders grow their ventures and scale. And also, as an investor, helping VC firms identify the landscape and pipeline of deals. And they are picking the bets that look pretty interesting.

Beyond that, I have also had the opportunity to advise global corporations as well as consulting firms, where they are looking at strategic advice around either building, or modernising their banking technology, or providing strategic and operational advice to their clients who are undergoing digital transformation in financial services. So as you can see, it’s a portfolio of work that covers operational advice, investment advice, as well as, being someone who can actually get involved at a fairly deep level, in the execution of some of these new ventures that we are seeing today.

Amit Ray: So Arvind, first of all, it’s a remarkable set of things that you’re doing. The way you describe it, it’s super exciting. And I’m sure a lot of people would love to be doing the kind of stuff that you’re working on, especially those with similar kinds of experience who’ve worked for a long time and have built up a lot of domain knowledge. So maybe to get started, you could help them understand how you get started down this path as an advisor as an investor. And maybe they could get some lessons from that as well.

Arvind Sankaran: At the time that I kind of chose to step away from my career as a banker the world was the proverbial oyster and one could look in many different directions to get started. I knew a few things that I wanted to keep as guiding principles as I built out my own portfolio of work. One was, if I was going to provide advice, that beyond, of course, it being meaningful and actionable, it was important that I was seen as a source of neutral, independent, trusted, objective advice, and that my advice is not tied to any specific outcomes on behalf of a firm that had engaged me, so that is pretty important to me. And I think that resonated with some of the folks that I initially engaged with.

One of the VC firms were well established in Southeast Asia, India, early in growth investor. In the initial period, actually, we decided that, rather than have me appointed as board advisors to set up portfolio companies, we’d rather arrange for a speed dating between myself, and five founders, who were in their Fintech stable of investor companies. And actually, that made a lot of sense because water found its own level, it was an organic process of discovery, you know, my advice would come from an objective place.

And what we found was, over the course of those weeks that the speed dating happened, three of the founders said Arvind, Yes, we like what you have to offer, and we would like to onboard you, I didn’t hear back from the other two. And I think it was a good, honest, organic process and that actually helps the sustainability of these types of advisory engagements.

Amit Ray: Yeah, and that is a really interesting point, Arvind, because the normal way of doing these things is that you quit your job, and then you go back to try and work with ex-colleagues, ex-clients, or maybe you just start pitching your services. But in your case, because the service wasn’t well defined, you weren’t really trying to pitch a very specific thing like a freelancer might have done, it wouldn’t really have worked easily in that manner.

So the fact that you were able to create this kind of a setup where you just go to founders, have a natural conversation with them, and then they decide whether this whole engagement makes sense, is a really good way to get started. And it’s also a bit different from what I’ve heard in the past, from other people who’ve gone solo.

Arvind Sankaran: One of the things I came to learn very quickly is that the founder’s time is absolutely precious, and they don’t want pure advice, or as we say, in Hindi Gyan Bazi, I think what they need is real execution level kind of engagement, getting into the among the weeds. And I think it is from that standpoint, that you will be able to establish your need in a very real way. And that’s when the connection happens meaningfully.

Amit Ray: Right. Actually, just to drill down a little bit on the executional element over here. So it’s not pure advisory, the way you’re describing it, which I would have assumed to be like an hour a week, or maybe a couple of hours a month kind of thing. You’re talking about something which is more involved, you really have to understand their business and operations. And I guess that probably takes a substantial amount of time.

Arvind Sankaran: It does. And notionally, at the start of such engagements you do try and mutually identify how much time is really needed. But in reality, that notion doesn’t exist, because you have to operate in the time-space continuum that the founder and his or her team operate in. So I found myself plugged in at all days of the week and different times based on the need and I have also attended pitches with clients that they were taking their product to, and that revolves around the client’s availability.

So you have to be agile. And I think that kind of really works well. And it’s therefore to that extent, you have to unlearn some of the routinization that one may have been used to in a corporate previous life.

Amit Ray: Right. And in fact, the whole movement nowadays around work-life balance talks about compartmentalising and doing all of that. Whereas what you’re saying is that you actually have to be kind of led by the needs of the business and so therefore, it may not be as time-boxed as one would assume. So this is an interesting insight. Another one is, you’ve spoken to these founders and you started working with them, how did you choose to price your service or your time?

Arvind Sankaran: This is a super interesting question that you asked and I have developed a certain insight and approach to it. Some parts of it, the approach, I think, is about my own level of comfort, about discussing price. I have in the initial period found it a bit awkward to actually lay down a price and drive a hard bargain, what I found a lot more meaningful is that, just like water finds its own level that the value that the founder of the firm attaches to your work finds its own level, and therefore the price will follow from there.

I have typically, not kind of laid down terms in a very definitive manner, there is a flexible, mutually kind of aware, and approach where, depending upon the stage that the venture is at, what kind of funding they have, what values are attached to my help, I found things just kind of naturally find the appropriate shape and size. But one of the things I think it’s important when one gets into these kinds of engagements is to set a definite value.

Because that ensures that you are serious about it that both teams are serious about getting together, making that time available, and building a cadence to that conversation. But I’ve not operated with any minimums or any such thing, in fact, to be honest, one of the ventures that I advised very early on probably six years ago, was a very early-stage venture, they didn’t have funding, they were going to go for a round of funding, six months from there.

And so the problem they were solving was super interesting, and it directly spoke to my operational experience. So we actually agreed on $1,500 per month. And honestly, as a number that really is insignificant. But for me, it was an opportunity to actually professionally expand my horizons, and go deep with the founder and his team into solving problems I thought were super pain points for banks.

Amit Ray: So this is good to know Arvind, because I’m 100% sure that everybody who ventures out on their own struggles to price their service. See, it’s one thing if you’re selling a product, it feels like a bit of an arm’s length discussion, you’re talking about the value of the product. But in this case, you’re talking about the value of yourself almost.

And so it’s a very uncomfortable discussion to have, and you found an elegant way around it, which is to figure out what value you can add, ensure that there is a need for what you’re doing. And then eventually, the founders themselves, work out something that makes sense based on the value that they’re getting. And I also liked that you didn’t shy away from, you know, like a small number at some point, knowing that if you’re continuing to give value, it will eventually work itself out.

Arvind Sankaran: Yeah, what I found is these things kind of start connecting to each other, and build a kind of pattern of work in value that you establish. And in the case of the VC firm that I was engaged with, in the early days, was a fantastic opportunity for me to plug into Fintech, because back then, in 2015, we were just getting going in Singapore, where M&A established the chief Fintech officers role as well as $250 million innovation fund where there were, I think, barely a 100 startups back then.

But that creates a pattern of work. And so even with this firm, after spending initially some time working directly with the set of portfolio companies, there came a time when it all added up. And I was actually kind of asked if I could join formally in the role of a venture partner at the firm level. So none of this was planned. But I think you gotta start somewhere and you need to really show that you can add value and things happen.

Amit Ray: Yeah, actually, that’s a good segue into the other question I was going to ask, which is, how do you grow your advisory or your consulting service and kind of sell what you have to offer?

Arvind Sankaran: That’s another great question because when one steps into a different stage of your career, where you’re essentially reinventing yourself, and you’re having to bootstrap and build your own book of work, how much time do you spend in sales and business development versus actual rolling up your sleeves and doing the advisory work is a tricky one. And what I have come to learn is that doors open other doors, and it is about time in the market. And I’m borrowing a phrase that we used to advise our wealth management clients in my previous life when it comes to investments.

So what I did find is positive word of mouth, on good work spreads. And this so-called gestation period, if you’re looking for it to turn into a sustainable portfolio of work that stays with you over multiple years, and which helps you devote most of your time, actually providing that value add or getting into the deeper end of the advisory work, rather than spending time chasing deals, that gestation period in my mind takes around two or two plus years minimum, where you find your own flywheel of work actually begins to get that momentum.

And at the heart of it, what I’ve come to realise is that rather than sell myself, I’d rather have people advocate for me, and therefore if I just stay focused on providing real value, the advocacy will follow. And that’s the best way of sustaining your portfolio work.

And in some cases, it has meant, you know, just kind of staying super focused on the problem that the client or the founders are trying to solve. And it could even mean that you don’t talk about a contractual relationship for even as long as six months. In one case, where the founder guy rolled up our sleeves, they were at an early stage, they were building something super interesting. And a lot of it was around building the risk management side of things in terms of collection, infrastructure, and loss provisioning, and all of that, and I had done rolls like that back in my days.

So we just spent time working through all of that and six months are gone. And the founder said Arvind, this is now getting a bit awkward because we haven’t talked. So here’s the deal. And he just wrote up the deal on one page, and we just signed and it was not insignificant. So that’s how it’s worked for me.

Amit Ray: Again, I think this approach is a good one. In a nutshell, what you’re doing is you start off with a small group of clients somehow, which in your case was via a venture firm, and then add value to them to a point where they start wanting to pay you something commensurate with that value. And then if you do that, for an extended period of time, when you’re saying roughly two years, two and a half years or so, you’re in the market for long enough for word to spread about what it is that you do.

And then people because you’re doing a good job, they advocate for you, and then you get more and more inbound requests. And so therefore, you may never have to spend time trying to sell yourself if that’s not something that you’re excited about. So this is a good approach to this whole problem that I’m sure a lot of people have, which is how do I sell my services? Most people don’t like doing it.

Arvind Sankaran: Yeah, and I think you’ve kind of really brought out the essence of what we just talked about. In the end, one of the things that folks who are looking to kind of reinvent themselves and build their next thing is to want to aim for longevity, the longevity of the work of your portfolio of clients and how long you stay actively involved in this and longevity also helps redefine yourself clearly.

Because you actually in a way borrowing again, from the startup world, you actually find your product market fit. The marketplace begins to understand what you are truly offering in terms of value. And then actually, you start seeing inbound requests coming in, because that’s when you know that actually, the market probably has now a good idea about what it is that I bring to the table.

Amit Ray: Yep, that’s what in the startup world would be called product lead growth. So, that’s effectively what you’re doing. So this is great Arvind, then you’ve been doing this now for, well, seven years. So I’m sure you’ve learned a lot of stuff. And more importantly, I’m sure there are people who come to you from time to time, with similar amounts of experience, wondering whether they can make a similar transition to what you’ve done. So what are some of the things you tell such people?

Arvind Sankaran: It is not an easy kind of transition. And that’s the reason why I think, folks like myself back then, as a kind of middle-level executive with a good career and making a choice to actually do something else, can relate to how difficult it must be. And, honestly, one can make whatever choice, and I do believe that you must make a choice that fits your personality and your circumstance and what you see for yourself, I think that’s the most important thing that nobody else can make that choice.

But over the last six, or seven years that I’ve been kind of, in this new stage of my professional career, I have played agony aunt to many colleagues who are kind of thinking about the same thing and appear to be at the same crossroads. And I have initially been guarded about offering advice because this is a very personal thing. And there is no one kind who can claim to have the wisdom that can be easily applicable to everybody.

So with that disclaimer, I have provided advice. And as recently as two days ago, I spoke to someone who was looking to kind of evaluate that change. So, I’ve kind of been able to synthesise what I’ve learned into a few different thoughts, and maybe I’ll share that. And this is, in some sense, a playbook or things that you got to think about, as you kind of embark on this journey. The first one, of course, is asking yourself the question about, you know, so do you want to remain in a safe harbour or sail the stormy seas?

So I think that is a very important question to ask about what you want to do, and again there is no judging, many of us value the security of where we are, and even if there are challenges, and kinds of disenchantment, a safe harbour in many other ways, maybe a viable choice. But if you truly are at that stage where you want to set sail, then you have to be prepared that it will kind of be different. It doesn’t necessarily have to be storming, but it will be different and that difference or that unpredictability, to some extent, is something that you’ll have to be comfortable with.

So that was the first thing I always kind of talk to folks about. The second thing, and I found this to kind of really stop people in their tracks and think about it hard is I advise them to burn their CV. Burning your CV is okay.

Amit Ray: You’ve only spent 25 years building up that CV, so why not burn it now?

Arvind Sankaran: Exactly. So I do have that quizzical look from folks, when I say burn your CV, because in the new world that one steps into, and when I say new world, I mean, where you’re going to professionally reinvent yourself and you’re going to work on new ideas, new technologies, new business models, etc.

The world is not a linear, chronological place. And whereas our CVs have been a historical chronological kind of description of what we have achieved over the previous, whatever, 10, 20 years, but that often is not your calling card. And what you really need to do is to distill one or two things that you are really good at, and remove all corporate language, but really get it down to what’s that one or two things that you’re good at.

And you should be able to talk about yourself in literally minutes of an elevator pitch. And I think that is super important to burn your CV and actually redefine yourself in very sharp terms.

Amit Ray: And that must be quite a struggle, right? Because most people who worked for a length of time, are used to describing themselves in terms of where they work. So I am Vice President at XYZ bank, or I’m Head of whatever, whatever, when somebody asks you that that is your natural reaction, versus saying something like I am able to XYZ, or I’m good at something, something. And this is why you should talk to me.

Arvind Sankaran: Absolutely, you’ve hit the nail on the head, because it is very tough if you’ve been used to a kind of defined role in an organisation setup. And that’s how you always introduce yourself, then if you’re going to burn your CV, and you’re going to have to describe yourself in one or two words, what’s that going to be it’s hard to find that new hashtag so to speak.

But that leads me to the next thing that I speak to folks who are looking for some counsel is I ask them to look in the mirror metaphorically, of course. And what that I guess means is, you gotta ask yourself the question, are you really up for this, if you want to make the transition, because I do find, and I’ve been guilty of that as well, which is to talk about doing something but sitting in the armchair for some period of time.

So you need to really ask yourself, if I do make the transition, am I’m going to lose that business card, that logo, that brand, the title, I’m going to be myself and I have to present that to the world. And does it sit well with you, are you comfortable in your own skin, and that you can deal with any questions that come along all well-intentioned questions from friends, family, and the extended circle about how you’re coming along in your new avatar and have things worked for you or not. And those questions will be there in the coming months, and maybe even a bit longer. So you have to look in the mirror and ask yourself that.

Amit Ray: Yeah, I remember Arvind, like, when I did, my first startup was 12, 13 years ago. And I quit my job to do that. And then people would say, what are you doing? And I would very excitedly talk about how great, I’m so free and I’m feeling wonderful doing my own thing. But after about three months or six months, as you said, the question began to get repetitive. And when you set it for the 100th time, you yourself also and especially if your business, is not something that you’ve quite figured out yet, or it’s not growing like gangbusters, like what maybe your friends are hoping or thinking, then it starts becoming harder and harder question to answer, and then you want to avoid that question altogether. So, it’s great that you bring up this one, it can be quite an awkward conversation to have for the time.

Arvind Sankaran: Absolutely, and there is a, even a social angle to it. Let me be totally frank, you know, many of the folks who might be listening in to this show, are maybe folks who are career nomads, who have taken their career to different countries, or living in a different culture, often the ex-pat lifestyle, are working in those small communities in the diaspora and often socialise with them. And, therefore, having to make this change, bold change that as it may be seen, and having to still stay among your friends, in your social circle, and be able to look them in the eye and say that, I’m moving forward every day, even if it may not be visible in a conventional way is not easy.

So, hence, therefore, I think it’s important to look in the mirror and really try and understand who you are, and whether you’re up for it. The next thing that again, for me, became evident, when I chose to make the change was to do the maths, and I think it’s an obvious thing, you know, we need to look at what the cash burn is going to be during this period of time that you’re pivoting your professional career. Because beyond yourself, and again possibly the demographic that we’re talking to, in your show, you know, there is family involved, and therefore, your decision does impact the family.

In my case, my wife is a lawyer. And so we knew we would be down from two salary cheques to one salary cheque. But we do comfort in that. And for me, that was a huge enabler. But nevertheless, I think one needs to do the maths and look at the core goals that you’re saving towards, and whether you are kind of providing enough for that, and whether you still have risk capital that you can invest in pivoting yourself.

Amit Ray: Yeah, and there’s an opportunity cost here also, because of the loss of income on one side. So it might seem like an obvious point. But it’s a very important point, which is you need to be able to sustain yourself while you figure out what you want to do.

Arvind Sankaran: It is, and operating costs are not exactly cheap, in overseas locations, and we’re talking about Singapore, and Hong Kong, and all of that I’ve lived in those countries, and it’s not cheap. So I think it’s very important to do the maths. The next thing that I found pretty evocative, when I talk about it with folks who are looking for advice, is to be your own founder.

Because if you think about it, at least for myself, I can say that, back in the day when I had a corporate career, I was ever grateful for all the opportunities and it made me who I am professionally. And I enjoyed working in all the organisations that I’ve been in. But I think over time as work becomes crazy and you’re on the treadmill, you do lose yourself. And you lose yourself in multiple ways.

You lose the connection with friends and family in a qualitative sense, you lose the connection with new ideas, new technologies, and really refreshing your knowledge base. And in many other ways, you do lose touch with your inner mojo or your creative self, in the sense that you can’t really find the time and the bandwidth to do all of that.

But when you’re in this mode, you need to be reconnecting with all of that, if you’re going to be your own founder, because arguably, if you lost yourself earlier on, you have found yourself now, in this new transition, and therefore you’ve got to do the hard work, you are starting with the new baseline, in essence, you’re a nobody, and I’m using a harsh word there, but you have a risk capital and an opportunity cost, you can call it either, and you got to make the best out of it.

So if it means pitching hard, eating humble pie, going to former colleagues, and actually working with folks in organisations, many levels, junior to what you may have been in the past facing rejection. And also, one of the things that people tell me, they have also experienced this is your pipeline of business will come from unexpected places, and therefore, strangers become friends. And in some cases, vice versa.

So, I think that being your founder is a very important thing to be prepared for. And the flip side of this is, is that there is that J Curve, that all of this lines up against, and so you need to be prepared to write your own, J Curve, as start-ups do, there will be a so-called value of death, there will be a moment where you might think about the idea of getting back, and there is no judging again, you know, many folks have gotten back and have reconnected very well and are happy for it.

But there is that moment, and therefore all support that you can get is important. And there will be some assumptions that may not actually work out, you might have started out with the wrong set of assumptions when you do the maths, and then things present themselves, but there is a J Curve, and so be your founder and ride your own J Curve be prepared for that is something that I do advise folks.

Amit Ray: So, that being the case, right, I mean, you have definitely emphasised the point around financial stability and being able to actually make all this happen. So does it mean that, in that case, the moment you quit, you should be like sprinting as hard as you can, trying to make it work in a very short time, so you can then be comfortable with what’s going to happen in the future?

Arvind Sankaran: That’s a great question you asked, because I have myself felt that way, in the early days, when I made the change that if I sprinted really hard, if I work three shifts on weekends, and met hundreds of people, then I’d accelerate things, actually, there isn’t really, at least in my case, back to a point that we spoke about earlier about time in the market, there is a certain cycle that it takes, and therefore, it is better to be kind to yourself.

And the catchy phrase that I’ve used with some of my folks who have spoken to me is to be kind and unwind, unlikely you’re going to kind of nail it in three months. And if you do, I’d be the happiest, and there are folks who have done it, but chances are if you pace yourself out, and kind of manage your expectations upfront, and plan it out, and you know that you’re making progress every day, even if it may not be visible.

And often there’ll be four seasons in one day, you know, philosophically speaking, but you have to find the time, since you have now found yourself, and arguably lost yourself in your previous corporate life. So you have to make time to smell the roses. And spend time with the family, reconnect with yourself, you will be able to do that. And those are sources of tremendous reserves of mental strength that you will find accumulating as you go through this initial stage.

Amit Ray: That’s such an important point Arvind, essentially, you’re saying that you quit your job only so that you can kind of reset the person that you are discovering yourself, do all those things that you sacrificed, because you were trying to make a career happen. And it would be quite a shame if after that in your new avatar, you end up becoming your old avatar just in a different way. And plus what you’re saying also is crucial here, which in any case, it’s unlikely that you’re going to start seeing extraordinary results in three months.

Even if you push hard you still need some amount of time in the market for people to find you, for people to talk about you, and for you to have an opportunity to deliver something to someone so you can prove what you’re capable of. And so if you just rush all of this stuff, you’re going to be similarly unhappy, just in a different environment.

Arvind Sankaran: Absolutely, I think that would be not a good thing to do, to have really made the bold and courageous step to kind of pivot yourself and go in the direction that you want to, but then end up creating a new hamster wheel for yourself, you know, kind of defeats the purpose.

So I think one of the things that, when you kind of provide that space for yourself, is you will find your mojo, and I do ask that folks who are in a similar place that I was back then, you know, really reconnect with some of their passions that they may have dropped along the way, and I know that I did, you know, back when I was in a corporate, you know, kind of existence, somehow, you always, kind of settle for the notion that there was no time.

And maybe it was true to a large extent, but I think it just became, over time, just a wall behind, which you really didn’t want to reconnect with things. Now’s the time to find something, whether it’s music, whether it is sports, whether it’s an art that you used to do, you know, make the time for it, because it does fuel you in ways that are amazing, and it builds your confidence and it builds your mental strength, you’re able to take rejection or disappointments better. And you also realise that you are not defined just by your work.

There was a point in time, perhaps early on, in your life, when you were not defined by your work, you were actually defined by your talent. And it’s time to bring that back out there. And you will find it taking you to places. I mean, one of the things I can share with tennis used to be a passion for me, it’s still a passion and my whole family, we’re all tennis-crazy folks, try to be at Wimbledon, or Ozzy or wherever we can be, we can. So the first gig that I actually jumped on when I left, the banking career was actually in sports marketing because I had a random meeting with the wonderful Vijay Amritraj and socially, we are connected.

And Vijay was looking to kind of create a sports marketing venture here in Asia. And he said, you’re an ex-banker, I’m like a sports guy, shall we just join hands and launch something? So actually, truth be told, that was my first startup, we actually registered a company here in Singapore, and we actually went out and pitched the hell out of all the private banks, to write a cheque so that it could fund very interesting, tennis and golf legends kind of program that we could bring out to this part of the world.

Six months later, of course, we figured the timing was probably not that great, because back then the sponsors were hurting. And we couldn’t find that sustainable kind of a business commercial model to back our idea. The idea was great, but the timing was probably not that great, but I got Vijay Amritraj as a friend for life, and I just did something that was actually connected to my passion. So you just don’t know, you just have to open yourself up and you’ll find things happening, which are amazing.

Amit Ray: That’s actually a valuable side lesson in itself, which is, even if you have a great idea, sometimes the timing is off. So everything else might be there. It’s just, it’s not it’s time.

Arvind Sankaran: Absolutely. So often when I think about it, one of the things I say jokingly, half-jokingly, but probably half-seriously is, over time, it’s been a series of fortunate accidents, or fortunate coincidences, or events that have kind of come together and it is kind of helped me with my own personal journey and to have arrived where I am, and there’s still work in progress.

But by no means is it anything else but still, I think it’s something that I think, do it you know, that things happen, when you’re not looking for it to happen, and if you look very hard, and hope for something to happen, it may just not happen. So it’s a funny life. Life is funny. So the couple of other things that I’ve spoken about is one is, of course, we spoke about finding your mojo, but the flip side of it is to see if you can unlock one of them and really achieve its fullest potential.

Often folks have good talents, everybody has a bunch of talents, it’s just that, time, circumstance, lack of confidence, whatever it is, has not helped us maximise it, here’s a chance actually, you might be able to take something to a level that you didn’t dream of, and for me, personally, one of the things that I’ve probably derived the most satisfaction from across all aspects of my own journey is music.

And I had left music back on the campus, after having started up a college rock band, and you would know that the Joka bandstand, and we’ve played together. Joka bandstand alumni, you know, after that, I had not really kind of gotten back to playing until 15 years ago, a bunch of us here in Singapore met, and actually started playing again. And when I moved away from my banking career, I found more time to actually be able to plug into how our band was kind of progressing and be able to support how we could do our next concert.

And so here we are a bunch of middle-aged lawyers, bankers, and techies, who kind of launched a rock band called bandwidth in Singapore, and we have played over the last 10 or 15 years. And it’s just an amazing feeling to be onstage, playing your heart out, having a bunch of folks listen to you and cheer you on. Everybody has talent, we are no different from each other. And here’s the opportunity actually to do as you transition to make the time and unlock the best side of you.

Amit Ray: Right, so thanks a lot, Arvind, these are all extremely good lessons. And more importantly, I think, for anyone who is looking at moving away from their corporate job, and intending to do something on their own, I think these are all excellent things to be aware of and plan for, before kind of jumping into this whole thing.

Because I think what you’ve outlined here, in summary, is like two sides of the coin, there are a lot of good things happening, which are you get to live your own life, you get to rediscover yourself, reconnect with your passions, take some time to get things done versus operating on somebody else’s timeline. But on the other hand, you have to know that you’re gonna face rejection, you have to know that you’re not gonna be able to ride on the brand that you were part of earlier, you have to be doubly cautious around earning cash burn, things like that.

So, I think there’s the positive and the, well, the downsides of the things to plan for. And these are all things I’m so happy you outline because these are things people should definitely think about before they take the plunge.

Arvind Sankaran: This is really reality-based, I guess, sharing where there are a lot of good things, and there are also things that you got to be prepared for. And once you’ve made the decision, that’s, I would say, more than half of the inner battle won, what comes ahead is really up to how you kind of move forward and believe in yourself and take help from folks around, you know, one thing that I’d say goes to the heart of the success of these kinds of transitions is the person in your life who will be your rock.

And in my case, it’s my wife, who’s been an absolute rock through this transition. And because, like I said, when one has to make such a significant personal decision to transition out of what is seemingly very stable existence it is super important that you have a person in your life who believes and has complete faith and is willing to back you up, and I think so ever grateful to my wife, who’s been a rock in this journey. And I would say that’s important for anyone, and whether it’s career, or whether it’s anything else, I think it’s important that you recognize and value that support in your life.

Amit Ray: Yeah, exactly. And as you said, I mean, if this is all about your journey, as a within quotes, founder, this person is going to be your co-founder, essentially.

Arvind Sankaran: Exactly, I think that’s a great way of putting it Amit, really co-founder, I’d say even copilot, because it is you are going to achieve altitude, and there are going to be clouds along the way. So you need a copilot with a good pair of hands sitting by your side. And that’s like an assurance and confidence booster like nothing else.

Amit Ray: Right. So Arvind, thank you so much for sharing all of this. If I might just summarise in about a minute or so. So first, we talked about how you get started, and your approach was to find a way to provide value. So it’s not so much about, okay, here’s my service now, who wants to pay me X amount for it, your approach was to, you know, I mean, you of course, worked with a firm and then found a bunch of founders to work with, but essentially, the essence of this was, look for people who will value your advice, and then work with them in a manner where you justify the time that they’re committing to you and in doing the work in the best possible manner.

And by doing that, you unlock a lot of other good things, which is, you become known in the market, your customers or people you’re working with, become your advocates, you don’t have to spend so much time trying to sell yourself, you don’t even have to spend much time pricing yourself. Because if you’re adding value, anybody can see that, and they will give you something that’s commensurate with all of that. And all of this stuff seems to take something in the range of maybe two to three years, for this whole wheel to kind of start turning.

And then subsequent to that, you also shared your lessons for people who are trying to make this transition. And they were really good ones. So I’m just going to go through them quickly, once again. So one is to understand for yourself, whether you’re the type who prefers safety, or you prefer adventure, safe harbour, or stormy seas, and you need to be comfortable with the concept of stormy seas.

The second is burning your CV, because what you did in the past in a linear fashion won’t count in the future, you’re trying to be of value to someone. So you need to be able to communicate your value, not your history.

The third point was looking in the mirror. So are you really going to be able to handle all of this uncertainty, handle explaining yourself to people who you know, handle, not having the name brand behind you, and just be your own person?

Fourth was doing the maths. So make sure that you actually have the wherewithal to sustain this till such time as that wheel starts turning and making things happen. Be your own founder. So act like how startup founders would have to act, which is you have to go and actually make things happen. You have to be humble, maybe there were people who were three, or four levels junior to you in your past life, but now they are going to be the people who are going to give you work, so you have to be able to work with them.

The next point was around writing your own J Curve. So this whole process can be quite kind of a bit of a downer, I guess initially. And so it is possible that in three or six months, you will be questioning your life choices. And thinking about whether you should get back. But if you’ve done the thinking in advance, then you will be able to ride out that valley of death.

The next point you made was about unwinding and being kind to yourself. If you’ve taken all the trouble to leave a certain environment to rediscover yourself, don’t recreate that hamster wheel once again, related to that was finding your mojo. So if you had a certain passion area in the past, rediscover that, and do it again, in fact, apart from the enjoyment you get from it, it will also actually fuel your work itself because it helps you de-stress in one area so that you can take the heavy lifting in the actual work area.

The next point you made was about bandwidth. And I think you said that we make excuses around not having enough time. But in reality, there is plenty of time, we just use it inefficiently. And especially at work when you have meetings and presentations and calls and stuff like that, and probably office politics also, it’s a lot of time is just consumed in that busy work kind of stuff. And maybe now you’ll actually be able to deliver things much more efficiently.

And the last point you made at the end was about finding your rock, which is to have someone in your life who believes in you, who supports this whole mission, and is going to be there for your good times, and at least your initial bad times, and they’re kind of give you the push that you need.

So, thank you so much, Arvind, this was a lot of good knowledge and experiential learning, compressed into 30 minutes.

Arvind Sankaran: Thanks for having me once again on the show. And it’s a pleasure to share my own little playbook of life that I’ve kind of come to develop, and hopefully, it’s of some use to your listeners out there. And when I think about it, and what’s going on today, the phenomenon of the great resignation, as we read, if I reflect back in a very humble way, it wasn’t a giant leap for mankind.

But it was a giant leap for one man seven years ago when I triggered my own great resignation. That’s what I came to realise in an epiphany, you know, recently that maybe that’s what happened to me. And here I am. And here we are talking about this topic. So thanks once again, for giving me the chance to share my own journey.

Amit Ray: Yeah, thanks, Arvind. And you’re right I mean, the same triggers that are leading millions of people to rethink their lives were your trigger as well, most likely seven years ago. So maybe you were like the original create resignation, patient zero. So, thank you once again, Arvind, for joining us today. And for those listening, please do remember to rate this episode five stars. It was definitely a five-star episode. So go ahead and click that. And do follow our show so that you don’t miss any of the excellent episodes we have coming up. So once again, thank you for joining us today. We were Arvind and Amit with ShopTok. See you next time.