TS10 | Donovan Choy On Why Principles Should Come First In The NFT And Crypto Space

Donovan Choy talks about the importance of sticking to first principles in crypto trading and the future potential that Web 3 holds. He also shares why popular speculative media articles in the realm of NFTs and crypto are like a double-edged sword.

Discussion Topics: Donovan Choy on Why Principles Should Come First in the NFT and Crypto Space

• Donovan Choy’s career history
• The intersection of popular media articles and research
• Why Bankless stands out
• Click-bait content around crypto and get-rich-quick NFT projects
• Potential of Web 3 social media
• Three tips for newbies in the space

Transcript: Donovan Choy on Why Principles Should Come First in the NFT and Crypto Space

Vnstr: So I’ll start. Okay?

Donovan Choy: Go ahead.

Vnstr: Hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of ‘The Token Singaporean’, my name is Vnstr. And today, I’m very lucky to have another Singaporean who also works in a Web 3 space to join us and talk a little bit more about how life has been like working Web 3, and how he envisions how things will evolve over time. So welcome, Don. And for start, let’s just jump straight to it. Can you tell us a little bit more about your past experiences in the sense that like, what you were doing prior to entering Web 3, yeah, let’s just start from there what were you doing previously?

Donovan Choy: Yeah, I’m happy to share. I guess, for me, my background was in political writing. So I’ve been writing on politics for a very, very long time, many, many years. I’ve published in the local media, in various policy websites, I’ve written a book on Singapore politics as well. And that was sort of like my semi-professional background. And then in my professional corporate career, I was in consulting, not exactly related to writing on politics. But generally, I’ve spent a lot of time looking at the intersection between politics and business, and even in my corporate career, when I was working in consulting, I was also looking at, like, regulatory compliance. So I spent a lot of time looking at these topics, and sort of like my segue into Web 3 was the move into the I mean, Web 3 it’s very, very political in the sense that the technology is radically, if it takes all of it, it becomes mainstream, it changes a lot of what we know today, a lot of traditional institutions, how central banks work so that to me is really exciting. Because when I write on politics, I think I come from an ideological angle, like when governments do this, is it right? Or is it wrong? How is it going to change things? And the segue into Web 3 was very natural, actually, just because of how political and the radical potential in it.

Vnstr: Right. So in a way, I feel like it’s very interesting to bring a person like Don on board, because when we talk about Web 3, when we talk about the crypto space, like, very often people get very excited when they sort of discuss about the latest drops, they talk about the latest coins, they talk about a lot of like price related action. But we don’t really have very, very nice discussions regarding regulations, regarding what it means, when people move from the Web 2 the Web 3 space, like is our society ready for something like that, how regulations play a part in changing the entire space, so on and so forth. And from what I know, Don, you are also currently doing something very similar and related to your passion, I guess, it is like writing about things like that. So can you tell them a little bit more about what you do currently?

Donovan Choy: Yeah, so after I left consulting, I was there for about three years I started getting very, very interested in crypto and Web 3. Actually I consider myself pretty late to the game actually, this was like late 2020. And then in 2020 there was the whole boom, the whole defy thing came about it really, really popped off. And I started writing for various crypto publications.

Vnstr: Was it like, just a freelance thing? Was it just a voluntary job or like how was it like?

Donovan Choy: Pretty much yes, it was mostly freelance. And I think maybe if Singaporeans are listening, I feel like every time I tell the story to Singaporeans they find it very incredulous like how really you’re doing this freelance is like, why do spend so much time doing something that pays so little but to me, it’s very ideologically exciting writing about this space. So I am writing for magazines like a Bitcoin magazine. I wrote for crypto slate, I wrote for local publication, chain debrief, writing all over the place. And then of course, I was also writing to Bankless, which if people don’t know, it’s a US based media publication. They publish on crypto. And so it’s writing into Bankless and eventually I joined the team and that’s where I am right now I’m full time with the Bankless Team India editorial department.

Vnstr: So that’s so interesting. So I mean, in a way, if you think about it all the freelance work they did in the past, they were not in vain because I believe those who were what eventually got you to your place today and also, the thing about independent writers and editors and content creators in general, like, Web 3 also brings the opportunity to sort of bring value back to creators, in a sense, and maybe we can explore a little bit more later or in future episodes. But that’s something that’s super interesting. But prior to Bankless, I understand that you also had another role also in a crypto company. What were you doing there? Were you also writing or are you doing something very different?

Donovan Choy: So I spent a few months at crypto.com doing research, but it was a rich live job then therefore your three months. And I think, actually, I will credit my time there. We’ve having with building sort of like my foundational knowledge in crypto because, you know, it’s so hard to get into crypto, there’s so many things you need to learn about before you can actually know like, what is this new project or protocol that is going viral, you need to know something about how blockchains work, you need to know, what is this that okay, there’s Bitcoin as ethereum. Now, what are these seven other layer ones? And what is layer two, and how they intersect, how does the technological stack look like? So I think my time in doing research, it was really useful for me, because I was slowly learning the foundational sort of knowledge that I needed to know, to be able to write about the kinds of topics that I write about today, but I think research is a lot more technical. And then I sort of transitioned out of that into like, more popular media now. So now the kinds of things that I write about, have a lot more mass consumption, I would say, it’s not so technical, and it’s a lot more palatable to the mainstream, sort of like readers.

Vnstr: So for yourself, I mean, having done research in very technical aspects, and now moving on to like, sort of providing content for the mainstream audience which do you actually prefer? Or which is considered more comfortable or meaningful to you?

Donovan Choy: Good question. Because for me, I’m intellectually excited, but like, the reason why I’m in Web 3, is because I’m intellectually excited about what technology can do and how it’s going to change incumbent industries. So I think, for me, it’s like the intersection between popular writing on like, popular media audience and like writing on research. And what I mean by that is, I sort of want to write so that wide audience can read it but at the same time, I don’t want to push like, the same narrative that every single crypto influencer on Twitter is pushing, which is basically just like calling each other a lot like one project, let’s say like this week one NFT project, or one project just starts going viral, and all of them start talking about why this is going to be the next game changer. And it just sort of like echoing each other. And I guess, that kind of writing and that kind of audience, it’s very accessible to a mass audience, because it’s really easy to understand. And what I try to do with my writing, personally, is I try to bring in a little bit more of a research angle into a popular writing and that’s why I think, I set like the intersection between the two.

Vnstr: So in a way, can it be rephrased as like, one thing is a vision to sort of like, break down very technical parts, or like very deeper topics into like, bite size or easy to understand information that can cater to a mass audience. Is that what you know, sort of like want to do?

Donovan Choy: Yeah, exactly that and also, I think, maybe one point is that my background is writing on politics. I am very used to thinking through a normative lens. And by that, I mean, I try to think it through like, what should or should not be good for protocol to do. If you read something coin desk, or like the mainstream crypto publications, they do a lot of these media publications what they try to do is that they take very neutral, kind of like stance, like they will report on whatever new projects that are coming up in the space, but they try and do it from sort of position where they are just like usually reporting on different topics and different protocols and subjects.

Vnstr: It’s very factual in a way, is it?

Donovan Choy: Yeah exactly. In my view, you can try to be as fair as you can, but it is very hard to take a neutral stance. Say for example, if you say that ethereum tokenomics is good, then that means that there are many other layer ones out there, which are bad, but by extension, by logical extension, because for example, ethereum tokenomics is extremely decentralised, much more so than a lot of the new layer ones anyway. But if you read some coin, they will try to do it in a way where they’re all equal players, were just reporting on you. And that’s where I think the bankless product, which is and where I am right now, that’s where bankless really sort of stands out from a lot of other different media publications is that they are bias, and they are not afraid to say so they have a thesis, they think that ethereum is going to be the next big blockchain is going to surpass Bitcoin, and they put their position upfront very clearly and they tell you why. And I think that some people might be turned off because like, hey, wait, your report is supposed to be neutral and unbiased. But I think that there’s value in that approach as well, at least you tell people like, this is what I believe. And if you don’t believe me, you can contrast what I’m writing and what I’m talking about, with the publication’s other publications that are talking about other topics. And for me, personally, because I’m very used to thinking through normative lens, like when I say that, when I want to write on a protocol, I try to write it through a lens of, okay, there’s something exciting here, and why is it good? And what they’re doing is it right or not? Is it going to achieve the objectives? And I think that’s the exciting thing for me about working and writing in Web 3 is slowly dissecting these different projects, these different protocols and sort of getting like the nitty gritty of whether they are actually good for the space and what they say they claim to do.

Vnstr: Right, yeah, that’s very interesting. And that sort of like segues to like, it helps to sort of help us transit to my next question, which I was going to ask you, how you can perceive the culture of like in the media industry in the Web 3 space. But as you mentioned, you know, I guess, at the end of the day it is more or less the same, you get people who are there to just create articles, that’s like, click Beatty nature, you get a couple of sites that do very, very neutral reporting. And then you have sites like bankless, like what you say they have a very, very specific and clear standpoint, and they stick by that. But for yourself I mean, I guess you’ve touched upon it again but in summary, are there any specific ethical values that you stand by as a writer when deciding how you want to write and how you want to put your work out in the space?

Donovan Choy: I guess for me, and I would say broadly speaking, from the viewpoint of the bankless product, we’re interested in covering and propping up projects that are aligned with Web 3 values. And by Web 3 values, I mean, something like decentralisation, like, you know, there are hundreds and hundreds of different protocols existing NFT projects as well, 1000s of them, in fact, and I can’t possibly write on every single thing. So how do I decide what to pick and what to prop up? And so there are a few rules of thumb, like, for example, I will look at whether a project is decentralised enough or not. To me personally, I think that’s a non-negotiable, like the extent of decentralisation because if you can advocate for a project, or if you support a project, which is very centralised, then what is the whole purpose of this Web 3 thing, it’s no different from what they’re doing in traditional industries, FinTech, Web 2, etc. And so to me, that is like, I remind myself, Okay, I like this project, and why do I like it and why do I think it’s worth writing on I look at something like how decentralised they are, and we go into like, how you measure that there are many, many different ways. Like we can look at how decentralised a project is, but that means like, one of the non-negotiables.

Vnstr: Okay, that’s very interesting and very insightful as well because like, it’s important to know, like I believe, as content creators, no matter what kind of content creator you are, it’s important to sort of have sort of guidelines to guide you as you go on with this journey, and yeah, interesting to hear about yours.

Donovan Choy: Actually I would say it is different from, even influencers working in other industries. Let’s say something like a fashion industry. Like, for example, if I’m an influencer, trying to put on like a race street kind of brand, I wouldn’t take sponsorships from brands that are very elegant, or very high class. There’s a certain thing that we want to put forth for whatever industry you’re working, you know, everybody is trying to tell a story. And the story that I try to tell is through the decentralised ethos for Web 3. And to me, if you’re willing to sacrifice on that, then why are you even here in this industry?

Vnstr: Yeah, that is true. So in a way, also, finding your niche is also in a way, and sort of like, as a writer, or rather, as a platform, you need to know what it is that you offer very specifically in terms of your story. Very interesting. So can you tell me a little bit more about recent times, things that you’ve read, and you’ve seen all through your journey, in this job are there any specific writing or articles that really inspired you? And are there any specific kinds that really make you cringe like you really hate it?

Donovan Choy: Definitely, I come across a lot more cringy stuff than not cringy stuff. So it really depends, like, the people in Web 3, they’re in it for many different reasons. Like, for me, personally, I come from a more first principles basis. I’m in Web 3, because of ABC reasons. And then I want to read stuff that is propping up these principles and these ideological reasons there is a lot. I think, like other people, and I am in fact saying most people don’t come from a similar angle as myself, they probably come in through like, investor kind of position how do I get rich quick? I heard about a friend who made like 100 eths on some new NFT project. How do I do the same? So I mean, a lot of people who come into the investor sort of viewpoint, there’s a very huge market audience there. And it’s just simple economics, if there’s demand for those types of articles that helps to fulfil that demand, there will be a supply. And so if you just spend some time on like crypto Twitter, there’s like endless Twitter threads articles . They are just teaching you how to get rich quick, teaching you how to flip NFTs, how to do these things as soon as possible and get rich.  So for me a lot of these types of articles, I try to tune them off personally, not because I want to get rich, I want to get rich, but then for me, I’m in it because I want to know how this industry is going to change the future in 10 years’ time. So for me a lot of these types of articles it’s just so irrelevant to me. And also, I’m not saying that all of them are bad they’re genuinely good ones, but just because of the so commercial nature of it a lot of these Twitter trends teaching you how to game airdrops, teaching how to flip NFT and get rich quick I think a lot of it is just very, very, very brutally how do I put it? There’s just no underlying principles to those kinds of articles and tutorials, they are just purely teaching you how to get rich quick. They don’t care about whatever projects they’re asking you to buy is it sufficiently decentralised, is it trustless and all and what are the risks? So that to me, like to answer your question about what turns me off it’s those kinds of articles. And I think personally, for me, I wish we see less of that. But there are good and bad ones too. I mean, you bring these kinds of things like pump the floor price, and you pump the floor price investment comes in, and when investment comes in the space grows as a result. So I guess it’s like a double edged sword.

Vnstr: In a way it is a necessary evil. I mean, I wouldn’t consider evil, it’s just that I mean, it’s for a different purpose. I completely agree with your point in that sense. And I also feel that as much as like, articles like that, tutorials like that help a lot of people in terms of maybe people do benefit and get rich, because they learn a thing or from two from that. But all these are also very dependent on the current market situation and because of that, I think a lot of these articles also don’t stand the test of time, after a while they become obsolete. That’s one thing. And at the end of the day, like you said, deeper education is necessary, because we are always seeing so many people who managed to get rich, like, maybe through this articles, but at the end of the day, they don’t even know the basic of keeping their NFT safe, or things like that. And at the end of the day, what’s the point? Because then they get hacked, and so on and so forth. And then that’s when they start to learn the things that they should have known in the first place, even before getting into space. So in a way, these get rich thing it’s good. But at the end of the day, it doesn’t serve you much purpose, other than giving you that quick buck if you manage to get lucky because at the end of the day, education still times over everything and I agree with your view on that.

Donovan Choy: Yeah, you were talking about, like projects that didn’t stand the test of time, I don’t know whether you’re familiar with like, all these, the so called DeFi 2.0 projects late last year, Olympus, Wonderland, all these projects.

Vnstr: Yes, Olympus was very big at one point, I remember.

Donovan Choy: Yeah, and like late last year, like, when it was still like, in the bull market, when all of these new projects first came out. To answer your question about what makes me cringe, is that these writers who can put together like a cop sure, kind of like a viewpoint, like, they’re telling you, oh, this is new project and this is why if you put money in it you can get this much profit out of it. And they are right, there is so much certainty that something like this important new project is going to help you profit. And that to me, makes me cringe, because these projects are so complex, it’s so difficult to understand, like, I spent two months looking at Olympus, and there are still so many things that I don’t understand about the underlying protocol, like how do they make revenue and like what are like kind of blind spots and it’s just impossible for, like these Twitter influencers, or these YouTube influencers to put together a piece of content one week after the project starts to go viral and tell you why is like the next big thing. So I think a lot of it just neglects the basic principles, the first principles of keeping your crypto safe, or like teaching you how to invest in projects that are economically sound. And I just wish there was a lot more of it.

Vnstr: Yeah. I mean, it’s also quite set, like we are often talking about it that is that like in the Web 3 space, I think one of the biggest bad thing about the current space is that it is so speculative in nature, and nobody has the patience to learn, nobody has the patience to wait. Nobody wants to go for games that is like even 10% in the real world 10% is huge, but maybe over here, if it’s not at least 2x, people wouldn’t even look at it, you know, like this is the culture that needs to change. And yes, it will surely happen over time over a few more bull and bear cycles, just like how you see like, currently in the current market now that’s very bearish like we see a lot of these speculators, a lot of these people finally they’re rinsed out of the market. So we need many, many cycles of this in order to sort of like set the culture right, set the mind-set right, you know, it all takes time, I guess.

Donovan Choy: Yeah. And like we were saying earlier, I hate that but at the same time, it’s inevitable. Because if you allow people to trade freely, if you allow people to do with their own money, what they want to do is inevitable that you will see these types of speculative cycles. There’s this, saying that, as long as there’s a speculative component to anything, people are going to speculate on it and it is inevitable and no industry in the world, in the history of the world, ever got to the top without going through some kind of speculative phase. So I think it’s just very regrettably the case right now for Web 3 and yes, I think probably also, just because in the echo chamber, I’m reading all these things very closely so I see a lot of it as well.

Vnstr: Yeah, but for me, it was exactly the same. And I guess we’re on the same page in the sense that, like, this needs to change, but it will, it will. I think, over time, it’s just a natural way of how things work. At the end of the day, when space is developed enough, people are going to come in to regulate the space and this is when you see things will change as much as you know, it goes against the idea of decentralisation. But there has to be, at least that’s my take, that at the end of the day, there has to be some form of regulations, even within decentralisation, if not it will just be like, wow, it was forever. And then it’s not going to work out if that’s going to be the case. Yeah, that’s at least that’s what I think. I feel like this conversation is very interesting and it will be very insightful for a lot of people, because this podcast is generally targeted at people who are very new to crypto. And for very new users, I think a lot of times their exposure comes from Instagram, comes from influencers, so and so forth. So I think this perspective that we are sort of like sharing would be fresh and interesting, and something different from the regular content that they get from wherever they get it from. So actually, this next question that I want to ask you is regarding misuse of media tools. So like, my question is that traditional and Web 2 media has been blatantly misused or controlled by the rich and powerful to further their agendas, like what we see today, in this world. So do you think that Web 3 media can avoid falling into this step? And whether you think that specific tools systems or fundamental values of Web 3, that can lead to allow things to happen, or be done differently?

Donovan Choy: When you say Web 3 media, what are you referring to?

Vnstr: Like, for example, if the media is done in a decentralised manner I don’t know it could be anything at this point in time, you can’t really specifically define what the Web 3 media. So my question would be that, if we use the technology that is within the Web 3 space, if we are able to make use of this new way of working or like this new ethos that people stand by and create something new from there is there any possibility or are there any specific thing in particular, that is not currently in place in the Web 2 space that will allow this new evolution to not make the same mistakes as current?

Donovan Choy: Yeah, this is a very, very interesting question. I’m probably not qualified to answer this, but maybe I can take a few guesses and the steps I did right. Like Web 3, noted there’s a lot of these new projects in the space like lens protocol, for example many, many I really can’t remember their names. like the decentralised social media on space or projects, all these projects basically what they’re doing is they’re creating a decentralised Facebook, a decentralised Twitter, decentralised. YouTube where the core difference is that instead of the data stacks being stored on a centralised server, they are stored on a decentralised blockchain or some kind of decentralised storage, like RV4 ceramic. And the idea is that you will use this with all their own data and that is supposedly more empowering for users, because then you are not such a slave to like Facebook, or Twitter’s algorithm. So I think Web 2 social media, insofar as it’s not a free platform in the sense that people can speak freely or like people can publish viewpoints that are don’t conform to the mainstream consensus and opinion, insofar as that problem, then yes, I think decentralised Web 3 social media does have a bit more of a problem to solve. I don’t think like crypto discussions on Twitter, I don’t think there is much censorship at all. It’s usually the political opinions, the political space, which sees a lot of censorship on Facebook and Twitter, because of how controversial it is, like Trump getting banned that kind of controversy. Honestly, I think that the problem is that Facebook and Twitter these companies are so big now and they are being scrutinised by the government and that’s why they themselves have to behave a certain way otherwise, they will get targeted by the US government, with regulations and like fines, etc. So, the kinds of censorship that they’re doing on their platforms I think Web 3, social media has some potential to be able to avoid that kind of censorship. Because you can’t target a Web 3 platform as easily as you can target Facebook, there are still ways there are probably like certain parts on the technology stack of like, lens protocol that is still centralised, that governments can target, but not as easily as Facebook or Twitter or Google.

Vnstr: Right. So I guess for myself, I also feel the same way. And I think like this increased openness, and sort of, like, owning your own information would be good. But at the same time, that’s with every single tool that humans create, it’s generally neutral until someone takes it and use it for something bad. So as much as this newfound freedom can be very empowering for each of us at the same time when it comes to like, deciding or sort of, like, we can’t really control how this sort of new power invested in these tools are being used in different ways. It could go both ways. It could be very good or it could be super horrible.

Donovan Choy: So, it’s a double edge sword basically like, for example, what’s been going on with Tornado Cash in the past week you won the prize so you can use it to do good things. Like, for example, I want to donate money to, let’s say, Ukraine, but then my government is against it. Like, Tornado Cash is perfect for that. I can donate to a good cause for humanitarian reasons, but of course, it also allows criminals to use it. So it’s a double edged sword as with most platforms, and most useful tools in the space.

Vnstr: Yeah, exactly. Okay, it was a very, very good discussion. So nice having you here Don. Before we end, I just have one last question to ask you. Can you give our listeners top three tips or tricks to just survive the Web 3 space in general, it could be anything, just the top three advice that you want to give someone who is completely new to space and wants to navigate in this space?

Donovan Choy: I guess, you know, just really like the basic lessons, go back to your first principles, whatever new project that some friend or somebody you have meet, that’s telling you about just ignore them because 99% of the people you meet are not experts, even though they speak like one even look at people like Mark Cuban. He’s like the God investor in investing in projects that went kaput, like IM finance last year like the top investors venture funds, investing in Tarot and Tarot went kaput as well. So you know, what are the chances? That guy that you meet at some conference, or that one friend, who claims that he has made a lot of money, that’s a wonderful chance that he is an expert when these top investors themselves get things wrong. So like, tune off the noise.

Vnstr: Yeah, exactly. And one more thing people don’t really understand about how top investors invest, is that actually what they do so that’s the thing about being rich. What you actually can just do is to just throw your money into 10 different baskets, as long as one strikes that’s it you make back all the money that you’ve lost. So this is not something that a lot of people can do. So yeah, that’s something also.

Donovan Choy: Yeah, precisely you are right. And my advice is just go back to the first principles. You know, everyone when they enter the crypto space for the first time, they kept telling you, not your keys, not your crypto, but everyone just thought like, Oh, it’s just a catchphrase I think it’s fine if I put my money with Celsius or some other like centralised bank, crypto institution, and then look at what happened in the past year, so I think just really go back to the first principles, and it’s probably boring. I know it’s hard to keep pounding like those first principles. In many ways it will come off as like a boomer. Well, now, the new projects, everyone’s talking about that. Why do I care about the boring like, first those principles? But I think they’re the most important and just go back to it. Understand, like, what is this Web 3 project about, what did the earliest founders did, why do we think trust lessness is a big issue, why do we think decentralisation is a thing and as long as you keep those principles close to heart I think you’ll be relatively safe. And I think that really is the best advice.

Vnstr: Yeah, it might take you longer to navigate the space but once you get the foundation’s right as in there’s plenty of time for you to go get that moon shot. And perhaps after you get your foundations, you might kind of realise that well maybe that’s not what you’re after, at the end of the day. Hard to tell.

Donovan Choy: Exactly.

Vnstr: Thank you so much, Don, thanks for being here. So if you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to subscribe and follow us or you can just drop any questions you might have in on Twitter. You can also follow me on Twitter. I’m Vnstr_eth. Don, do you have like a Twitter that you’re active on?

Donovan Choy: Yeah, it’s just my name DonovanChoy.

Vnstr: Cool. Follow Donovan if you want to know more about whatever he’s up to and the articles that he’s going to put out so on and so forth. And yeah, we’ll catch you on the next episode of ‘The Token Singaporean’. See you.

Our Guest: Donovan Choy

Donovan Choy is a writer and author from Singapore who currently works at Bankless, a United States-based media publication. He produces regular articles on the topics of cryptocurrency and researches new NFT projects.