TS11 | Cryptocurrency And Ahe (NOT SO) Secretive Blue Dollar Economy Of Argentina

Pablo shares his journey from not being able to open an investment account in a bank to trading in cryptocurrency full-time. He also talks about the numerous learnings he has had during his journey.

Discussion Topics: Cryptocurrency and the (not so) Secretive Blue Dollar Economy of Argentina

• Pablo’s entry into the crypto world
• The Blue Market of Argentina
• Mainstream usage of cryptocurrency in Argentina
• The NFT space
• Tips for beginners in crypto trading

Transcript: Cryptocurrency and the (not so) Secretive Blue Dollar Economy of Argentina

Vnstr: All right. Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of ‘The Token Singaporean’. My name is Vnstr, and today I have with me, my friend Pablo, who’s here to basically share a little bit about what he does in crypto and something that I found very interesting about him was when I heard him share about this thing called blue economy, that is specific to Argentina I’ll leave him to share more about it later, but welcome Pablo. Thank you for coming on board and can you just introduce a little bit about yourself and where you’re from and where you’re currently based and so on.

Pablo: Well, I am Pablo. I am from Argentina. I moved to Paris like five months ago to work in Ledger. Before that I was living and working in Argentina, working in the crypto industry. I knew about Bitcoin around 2015, 2016 and what we talked about a little bit is the blue economy, what we call a dollar blue. I’m not sure if you want to talk about it now or later, or what do you think?

Vnstr: I think we can talk about it a little bit more later, but before we continue, I just want to ask, you know, you got into cryptocurrency in about 2015. How did that happen? Like how was it for you?

Pablo: In most cases people usually know about Bitcoin or about crypto because a friend told them about it. The funny thing is that I don’t really remember how I first knew about Bitcoin. Nobody showed it to me. I just found it on the internet. I wanted to invest, I wanted to buy stocks in the stock market in Argentina. The thing is that the bank, because I had so few savings, I had like $200. Those were my life savings.

Vnstr: And dollars you mean in USD?

Pablo: Yeah. So the thing is that I went to the bank being like 21 years old. I was really happy. I got up really early to go to talk with the guy from the bank to open my investment account. The thing is that the guy basically laughed at me because I mean, it was nothing for this bank and the papers and the documentation that they asked me I didn’t have anything of it. Like a proof of residence. I mean, I was a student. I was so fucking broke. And the thing is that because they closed this door of investing in the stock market, let’s say, I think it was in forums in groups like, I don’t really know how I got to know about Bitcoin, but at first I was interested in only investing. I’ve been trading full time, I mean, like I quit my job to start trading the whole day between 2017 and 2020.

Vnstr: Trading cryptos?

Pablo: Yeah, and after that I’ve been working on the exchange market, what we call the blue market, which is like, it’s basically between crypto, US dollars and ___ (03:08 inaudible) basis These are the three main participants in this market.

Vnstr: So this is something that would be very interesting to our listeners I think, because even for me talking to you was the first time that I heard about this blue economy. And I understand that from 2015 till now your crypto journey has evolved a lot. You’ve done a lot of different things. So for a start, you know, after trading as an individual, you went on to work in the blue economy. Can you now tell us officially what this so-called blue economy that is in Argentina?

Pablo: Well, basically it’s a fancy way to call the blue market really. If you keep in mind that, for example, in Venezuela, you have a black market to buy chicken, to buy groceries, to buy food. It’s like the black market is defined by what the government says that it’s legal. So because the exchange market between the US dollars and __ (04:06 inaudible) basis, it’s so regulated there is a huge black market for the exchange, the informal exchange, which is not like only for criminals or drug dealers or people that have like shady stories it’s like the blue market includes everyone like teachers. I don’t know.

Vnstr: Just anyone who wants to get involved in this so-called regulated thing. Is that what you’re saying?

Pablo: Right. But the thing is we have such a high inflation that as soon as you have a little bit of money, you want to buy US dollars. This is something we’ve been doing culturally speaking. And you cannot buy dollars from the bank directly because there’s a lot of regulations and there’s a limit. So what you can do is to go to the street talk with someone out there. And it depends, of course I mean, it’s not the same if you want to buy $300, it will probably be just from someone on the street. Like if you are buying weed or something, it’s more or less the same thing if it’s like a really small market. Now the kind of market I was working on is much, much bigger. It was like, a minimum transaction was like $5,000. And this was like an office. This was like an actual bank. We had security, we had our whole level. It’s like a very different market.

Vnstr: So when you’re talking about sort of like buying all this stuff, you’re talking about buying USD as well as crypto.

Pablo: Yeah.

Vnstr: Is it right to say that people got interested in crypto as an alternative to USD because it’s also a good store of value. Is that right?

Pablo: Yeah.

Vnstr: And unlike a lot of different countries where even though there could be regulations, you can probably still find exchanges in official platforms to buy your cryptocurrencies or even exchange with other currencies in Fiat, in Argentina it’s not the case. So very often you have to buy it through very illegal means quote unquote illegal.

Pablo: We call it blue because it doesn’t sound so ugly.

Vnstr: It doesn’t sound black basically. So this is something so different from the experience that we have, because just like what you said your culture is such that whenever you have some kind of savings in Argentina dollars, you want to change it to another currency. But for me I’m based in Singapore and Singapore has always been such a strong dollar. We have never had to worry about these kinds of things. So it’s super interesting to us how crypto has sort of empowered people in your country in a different way, because it allows you to store the value of your earnings other than in USD. So this is something that I find that’s very different that I think would be nice for people to know when people talk about how crypto is a scam, crypto is useless you know, it’s not true. There’s so many applications for it and things are already happening right now.

Pablo: Something very practical that we see is I will mention like three scenarios. Let’s say you are a graphic designer, developer or someone who can work for an ad company that is out of the country which is like a very privileged situation to be in right now. Let’s say you want to work for a company that is from Argentina that is offering services to another country. They will pay you the equivalent to maybe. 700, 600 dollars a month in pesos. They will pay you in pesos. So it’s not great. Now, if you work doing basically the same thing for a company directly as a freelancer you will get, let’s say, 2,000, 3,000 a month. If you receive it in your bank account, they will change it at the official exchange rate. That is set by the government and including the taxes and everything you will get almost half of it a little bit less than half actually. That’s what I mean by almost half if you do it with the bank. Now, if, instead you prefer to do it using PayPal, using USDT for example, then you can change it in the blue market and you will get cash basically. You will get a hundred percent of your value.

Vnstr: Right. So, that makes a lot of difference.

Pablo: It’s very attractive right now to use crypto, especially to use USDT.

Vnstr: Yes, and one thing I’m interested to know, like, does the government know that this is happening?

Pablo: Yeah.

Vnstr: But are they doing anything to sort of clamp things down or like, how are they dealing with this?

Pablo: It’s pretty sad when you think about it because the government, basically, they can’t do anything about it. It’s not the bigger issue that they have right now because technically it’s not affecting them directly if you think about it. The guy who is bringing money from the outside without paying taxes, he’s not taking the reserves of the central bank. It is not affected by it because you bring the money in USDT you exchange it on the legal exchange market and then you spend it in the pesos probably. So it’s not affecting directly, it’s more like a way of tax evasion, let’s say, but it’s not the biggest problem that the government has right now. If you think about the debt, if you think about the spending that the government has it’s not a big deal.

Vnstr: Yeah, I understand. So actually my next question was more or less with regards to how applications of crypto in Argentina is different from th

e rest of the world let’s say compared to more developed countries like the US. But I think the examples that you gave made it quite clear to us that perhaps in developed countries or rather crypto as an industry, as we know a lot of people see it as the rich man’s game. You know, it’s always like growing your wealth, that kind of thing, something that is not very tangible in a sense, but over at the other side of the world in Argentina, you see that it is not as fluffy as it seems, you know, people are using it day to day to solve real life problems. So that is something that is very interesting as well. Thank you for pointing that out.

Pablo: You can buy your cell phone with USDT in Argentina, you can buy a computer, a PlayStation, maybe even a car it’s like, it’s getting more and more normal for people to start accepting especially USDT. I mean, I don’t want to be a Bitcoin maxi. I am secretly a Bitcoin maxi, but I am not proud of it because it’s like, I don’t want to be the kind of maxi that only loves Bitcoin and hates everything else. I try to be really open to new technologies and I’m curious about NFT, but the thing is it’s doing really well USDT in Argentina, it’s doing really well, because the fees are solo. And for some reason, everyone uses Binance, which I fucking hate because Binance is like KYC, custodial exchange. I mean, you don’t have the private keys, they know who you are, they have your ID. That is not crypto. You don’t have it. I don’t have anything against Binance, but I don’t like the way they work.

Vnstr: Yeah, like, just in terms of the operations. I mean, in a way it’s not a popular opinion, but in a way it’s still very centralised at the end of the day. So, I completely understand. And I think something you pointed out is really like poignant in a sense, because you know how you are saying that in Argentina, people would prefer it if you pay in crypto. But we still have so many naysayers in our day to day life saying like, for example, you go to a shop and then maybe you talk to friends and then you’re like, why are you getting, like, do you really think that people will accept crypto in the future? Why would people pay with crypto? Why would people want to do that? There’s so much resistance in the more developed side of the world, but then it’s so open in the other part of the world. So with this in mind, we are looking at a very big picture do you see that in the future with this going on like this and with how technology is like going, whether you see a shift in power over time because of the difference in how the different countries utilise this new technology that is considered to be the future.

Pablo: I think in the future, we will have like today, you have Netflix, you have Amazon Prime, you have HBO, you have Paramount, you have, I don’t know how many streaming services which is like the official legal and mainstream corporate way, centralised way to access movies, series whatever. Now, this is one way of using and accessing your movies and stuff. But there is also torrent and this is something that has been around for decades.

Vnstr: Yes, since I was alive.

Pablo: And we’ll be there, and they are coexistent. I mean, you will still have in a few years, we will probably still have Binance, Coin base crack centralised exchanges. But there will always be the option of having your own wallet or having a hardware wallet, for example, of having your own keys and I don’t think one technology has to be opposite or like one or the other dollar or crypto is like, I think both options will coexist. And if you think about the history, it’s like many times we have very different currencies and they have to compete. You need a strong currency, you need a shitty currency, you need a cheaper one. I don’t know it’s like the market will decide and there’s no need to have only one. I don’t believe Bitcoin will be the currency of the world. I don’t believe that. I mean, it will be adopted in the whole world and it’s right now I think but there’s no reason to think that the dollar will die.

Vnstr: Yeah, for sure. So like you mentioned and I completely understand and agree that is that right now a lot of people are having this very extreme sentiment in a sense that it’s an either of the scenario, but at the end of the day, we’ve seen in many different cases that throughout history that a lot of different things can gradually coexist and it’s all about meeting that equilibrium over time, and market mechanism will probably work itself out at the end of the day. And we’ll just see how it goes. I completely agree with you on that point. Very interesting.

Pablo: And it depends on the kind of views you want to give it. I mean, for my mom, who wants to see a very specific thing on Netflix and it’s much easier for her to click a few buttons and it doesn’t require a really high technical level. It’s so simple, you can have it on your TV, you can have it on your phone, you can remember which part you were on. I mean, it’s a service, you’re a client. And that’s the way centralised exchange works. And it’s not bad. I mean, I don’t know, but it’s necessary and I think it will be around for a while.

Vnstr: Completely agree. So next question well, as this podcast is very NFT focused at the end of the day. I just want to ask you if you can tell me more about how people in Argentina view this NFT revolution that is going on and perhaps give me your personal view on the recent, you know, how we’ve been through an huge hype and right now we are in the pits, crashed completely crashed and how you see this thing going forward, you know, in terms of its technology, in terms of whether the hype will grow, come back again, you know, whatever you think about the NFT scene.

Pablo: Well, I will speak about what I have seen in Argentina at least it was more like, maybe not the main focus to be honest, it’s like most of the transactions, most of crypto users, let’s say they will be really focused on USDT, Bitcoin and Ethereum.

Vnstr: Why USDT and not USDC, like, pardon my ignorance, but I’m just wondering.

Pablo: It just became a standard for some reason. I don’t know it’s completely arbitrary. But I think it was before USDT. And I know one of the guys who was a really early adopter who brought this blue market into crypto. It’s a really funny life. We’ll talk about this offline.

Vnstr: So like, your personal view about this.

Pablo: When it comes to NFTs itself I feel like it’s a technology, it’s a way to keep a record of ownership and as a technology, you cannot hate it. I mean, it’s a technology, it’s a tool basically.

Vnstr: And it’s a useful technology.

Pablo: It’s a very useful technology. Now on the personal view, and that is completely personal it’s not really important what I think about it because the technology is there the way you decide if you like it or not is if you buy it or not. It’s just as simple as that. And this is the good thing about a market. Basically it’s like, okay, you don’t like it, don’t buy it. You like it, buy it. It’s that simple.

Vnstr: Just put your money where you think, you know, where you like it in a sense.

Pablo: Yeah, and it’s completely personal and it’s completely secret. I mean, I can talk if I like it or not in public and secretly own like a thousand NFTs, and nobody will know. And I actually own NFTs. I am not really passionate about it because I am pretty sceptical about certain aspects especially when it’s only focused on the speculative side and it’s like, it’s the same argument against Bitcoin of course is you will always have this discussion. But the thing is, I don’t know if we think about it. I don’t want to mention any project in particular, but think about an NFT not AAA, but like double AA, like a pretty good, not awesome NFT. If you have this NFT in 20 years, you will find the market for it when someone buys it. What is the price of a NFT if no one buys it?

Vnstr: Or rather what’s the price of this NFT if the founders do not build it, like just leave it on its own in a sense. Yeah, that’s a valid point.

Pablo: So it’s like, for example, if you have Bitcoin, Ethereum or Cosmos, whatever currency you will always have an exchange market. And it’s like, even if the person dies, well, there’s still a market for everything. But for an NFT it being nonfunctional it’s like, it’s so unique that you need to find just one buyer and it’s not always easy that is the thing.

Vnstr: That’s true. I guess that’s a fair point that people don’t really think about that is in short term, we can see that all this NFTs hold value, but if you are going to be someone who is just investing in a way that you are buying stuff and putting aside and just not looking at it and hope that in 10 years, time, 20 years’ time, it’s going to go to a different level of price, in terms of price you really going to start thinking whether NFT is the vehicle that will drive you there because it’s a completely different ball game altogether in a sense. That’s very interesting. And thank you for being here today. You know, we’re almost done, just before we end, I just want to ask you, because this podcast is mainly for people who are very beginner in the crypto space, in the NFT space so yourself as like an OG in a space, can you give them maybe three tips or tricks that will be a top advice to anyone who wants to enter the space.

Pablo: Well, I think that pretty good advice that will apply to almost everything, not only on crypto, but also on investing is like, do not overexpose yourself in one single project. And it’s really very simple, it’s really easy to fuck it up. I mean, it’s like, when you’re so happy about it and maybe you buy some NFTs and the collection went up and now you want to buy more and more, or maybe you bought some crypto and the price it’s going great and the news are awesome and it’s like, it’s pretty hard to keep a balance and to not overexpose, not over invests in one single project. I think that will be great. Also probably about security. I think now I have it more pleasant. Of course I am working in a ledger now so I have like this moral obligation of saying it’s important to keep your private keys offline, it’s important to have security too, I don’t have your seed phrase in Google drive, don’t have it exposed.

Vnstr: Not just because you are from ledger, but as a whole, even if it’s not ledger as a product, it is important to not have your private keys online.

Pablo: And like being careful of anyone who is asking your seed phrase or whatever you are putting in your seed phrase is a website, they will have control of all your crypto in that wallet. So, it’s not a bad idea if let’s say you have multiple multi meta mass accounts okay it’s not a bad idea. I mean, if you have one for only having Ethereum and really valuable NFTs, maybe another account to show mess around and just to blind sign, whatever you cross. So the second advice would probably be related to security. And maybe the third one would be to focus on learning because it is not only about investing. I mean, at first, when I first got into Bitcoin into crypto, I was only focused on making money and I made a lot of money and then I lost a lot of money. And then I made a lot more and then I lost a lot more. And then I made more. So it’s like at a certain point you realise that something that will be with you forever is the things that you learn on the way. And these things are like, when you understand what this means, what the revolution is about and I’m not talking like politically, but technology it’s really passionate. I mean, if you understand it, so enjoy it, enjoy the ride.

Vnstr: That’s super good you know, even for me, I completely agree with that point if anything, like a lot of people go into crypto actually go into a lot of things with a very practical goal in mind without realising that with everything it takes time and you can’t just jump into things blindly. Like sometimes a lot of the gains that you can earn can only be sort of maintained if you have the right knowledge. So at the end of day knowledge is king, it is always important to just keep yourself informed and constantly update your knowledge and just make sure that you know the things you know, before you get into something. Thanks a lot, Pablo. So thank you so much. And yeah, we’ve come to the end of this episode, if you enjoyed it be sure to subscribe it and if you have any questions or comments, feel free to drop some comments on our socials, you can also add me I’m on Twitter Vnstr_eth and we’ll see you in the next episode of The Token Singaporean. Chow.

Pablo: Thanks. Chow.

Our Guest: Pablo

Pablo is a crypto industry insider and NFT trader from Argentina with an experience of over eight years in the field.