XA Podcast 026 | Board Composition With Abby Adlerman And Sze Meng Soon | Governance Series

There’s a lot a Board of Directors can do for a company. Its efficacy and vision play a tremendous role in a company’s success. Needless to say, a lot of thought goes into who should be on the board in the first place. Abby Adlerman and Sze Meng Soon join guest host Reza Benham to discuss this in detail.

Discussion Topics: Board Composition with Abby Adlerman and Sze Meng Soon | Governance Series

• Speaker introductions
• Why does board compliance often goes wrong?
• Why is board composition important?
• What is a good framework to choose board members?
• When is the right time for a startup to create a board of directors?
• What are some best practices with regards to board culture?
• How does a board achieve alignment of members and company goals?

Transcript: Board Composition with Abby Adlerman and Sze Meng Soon | Governance Series

Belinda Ong: Welcome XA community and SID members. Today is the second instalment in our series on startup world leadership and governance. Reza, thank you for hosting this series of discussions.

Reza Behnam: Thank you, Belinda for setting the stage and good afternoon, everybody. As you may recall, in our first episode, we explored the role of the Board of Directors, its duties and responsibilities. Today’s session will focus on the board structure within startups. We will discuss how to approach setting up an appropriate board structure from the perspective of the CEO and founder and then some of its implications. Joining the discussion today, we’re very excited to have the pleasure of hosting two experts. We have Abby Adlerman and Sze Meng Soon joining us. A quick introduction on both of our guests. Abby is the CEO and founder of Boardspan, the leading cloud based software and advisory company that focuses exclusively on helping the Board of Directors succeed. Abby brings more than 25 years of governance and board experience to Boardspans clients. Previously, she was on the leadership team at Russell Reynolds in Singapore and before that in San Francisco. She also spent 15 years on Wall Street as an investment banker. She recently has worked with the likes of Twitter KKR, the Olympic movement, and hundreds of other companies some were less known but equally admirable. Abby received her BS in Engineering from Lafayette College and her NPPM from Yale University, where she’s a member of the entrepreneurship advisory board. Welcome Abby.

Sze Meng is the Managing Director of SSM Global Advisory providing consulting, advisory and coaching services to founders, CEOs and board members. He’s an angel investor and a certified coach. He served as the President Southeast Asia for jd.com and as a board member of GoJek, jd.id JD Central and Tiki. He served in various leadership roles at SingTel, PayPal and Visa and also as a Management Consulting at McKinsey, and monitor Deloitte. He is a member of the Board of Trustees of the Singapore Institute of Technology and also served on boards of various social enterprises. He has an MBA from Kellogg School of Management, BA in public policy from Stanford, and also received the qualified listed entity directory certificate from Singapore Institute of Directors. Abby and Sze Meng welcome. Before we dive into the crux of today’s discussion, it’ll be great if you could start with a quick fun fact about yourself and a few words regarding why today’s topic is so important. Abby, would you like to start us off?

Abby Adlerman: Sure. And let me just say thank you to all of you for having me on this program. It’s a delight when Reza reached out to me, I said anything I can do to reconnect with my friends in Singapore was two of the most fabulous years of my professional experience and for my family to live there. So it’s a true honour to be reconnecting with so many of you. So why do I care? Why did I leave that cushy job and start a business all around boards? The bottom line is that the role of the board member is incredibly important. It plays such an instrumental sort of contribution to the health of any organisation. And this is true in the startup world, in the corporate sector, even in the nonprofit sector. And our observation was that it’s a very hard job that’s getting harder. And so I am really passionate about helping people that can have so much influence and ability to contribute and to really sort of keep the organisation moving forward, and it’s for me, I’m passionate about it because if we can help this board succeed, then we are helping a much broader network of people succeed. Fun fact about me: my very first job out of college was in a steel mill on a factory floor. And before you jump to flash dance in your mind, I will assure you I did not sing and I did not dance, but I did work in a steel mill.

Reza Behnam: Thanks, Abby, for that introduction and the fun fact. Sze Meng over to you.

Sze Meng Soon: Maybe just be on a fun fact give a bit more thought about dancing. Actually, I know about the lion dance in the Chinese Lion Dance. I also know swing dancing. So that’s a fun fact. both the East and the West. So first and foremost, I really appreciate the time. I think we can jump right to the questions I have been on the boards of different companies. I also have been in position when I have to report to boards. When I was in PayPal, I was Chief Executive for Hong Kong, Korea, Taiwan, in which I’ve board because PayPal Hong Kong Limited was a listed company. And I obviously was also running businesses when I had to advise founders on who actually have to form boards. And myself I’ve been on board with CEOs and founders. So from different dimensions, and a more practical component, I expect, would just love to share perspective and insights. So thank you Reza.

Reza Behnam: Thanks very much Sze Meng. Maybe we’ll start sort of with a bang and address the elephant in the virtual room. So this question is for either Abby or Sze Meng, you know, oftentimes, especially lately, we read headlines about compliance gone wrong. We heard that about FTX, not so long ago. Before that it was bird, and in Southeast Asia, we had PayMongo and Zilingo, and of course, before that was Staranus. What happens, what usually goes wrong? Why or how do these things happen?

Sze Meng Soon: So I think there are a couple of dimensions here. So for public listed companies, I think mainly the board of directors actually truly understand their legal and fiduciary duties, but more importantly, they can be held to the fire by the regulators. But for private companies, it is a bit grey. So if you look at some of the recent news, actually, the CEOs and management are undergoing a lot more scrutiny, rather than a board itself, but the challenge is that even if the name is associated with a private company that has that issue, then there’s something that you as a board member has to think about. Fundamentally, the board has to be focused on two aspects, which is governance, and performance. I think many of the SID members here are fully aware of these two dimensions. And both are equally important. But in many high growth, VC backed companies, performance sometimes becomes an overriding issue, and that could explain some of the challenges that you see in the current situation.

Abby Adlerman: Yeah, thanks, Sze Meng. You know, Reza wants to start off with a bang, and I’ll be provocative and say that a lot of times it comes down to the board, not keeping their eye on the ball. And as Sze Meng just talked about in terms of the responsibilities, I like to think of them as oversight and accountability is sort of the place that a lot of boards have to start. And when a board and we’ll talk about not only Theranos, which was a very big case, in the Silicon Valley, where I’m from FTX. For those of you that don’t know, doesn’t have a board, the founder refused to have a board. And I kind of bring it all the way back to Enron. If you guys remember, Enron, was probably the first really visible, sort of blow up of a board totally missing the ball and taking their eye off the ball. And that, by the way, is what led to Sarbanes Oxley, which in the US was a seminal change in the definition of the responsibilities and roles of boards. So why does the board take their eye off the ball? Well, maybe that’s something we want to explore a little bit more. But it’s usually because either they’re so caught up in the performance as Sze Meng, already talked about, or because they’re overly trusting, and a little naive, which has happened in some of the cases that we just talked about.

Reza Behnam: Thanks, Abby. Yeah, I think in Enron, the general consensus was that it was more greed. And so I was just wondering, sort of between greed and negligence where do most of these cases happen? Are there other factors besides greed and negligence or are those pretty much the two I mean, we have celebrity CEOs, seemingly drumming up support from big name investors like Sequoia and others who are very experienced in this regard. So, we’d love to hear a little bit more about sort of how that happens and how sort of people follow the celebrity CEO in some big cases.

Abby Adlerman: So negligence is a little bit of a harsh word that I think some people would push back on. Maybe we can temper it a little bit with benign negligence because I think there’s a naivete that happens. And if you look at Theranos, as an example, you know, very accomplished people on their board, and, frankly, a lot of investors thought this is great. We’ve got these accomplished folks that have led large sorts of portions of the US government and other major institutions. And I think it was almost in a surprisingly bizarre move some naivete to be too deferential, or to presume somebody else was checking the facts were just to take too much for granted. So I think that there is that, you know, what ended up playing out to feel like director negligence, and it absolutely was, it didn’t come from that place of being irresponsible, it came from the place of just being, frankly naive, surprisingly naive and hands off.

Sze Meng Soon: Yeah, just building on that, I think now, our conversation is revolving a lot about governance. I think fundamentally no matter whether someone is really competing in certain areas, I think what Abby was saying leading large part of US government, or you could be a accomplish, let’s say, an entrepreneur, or inventor, but at the end of the day being on the board, you actually really need to understand your role and responsibility. So there is also a potential hypothesis that people who are asked to join the boards may not fully understand the legal obligation that they might have to the shareholders, and also the surrounding laws around that. So I’m not advocating for SID only, but after taking a listed entity, Director kind of qualification, you really truly understand the obligation of it. And therefore, I think it’s also important for any board directors to really be aware of their role and responsibility first. And of course, if they then choose not to execute on that, then I think I think the word negligence is correct. But my sense is that not every director on especially private companies, are fully aware of their true obligation to the shareholders, and to the law, actually.

Reza Behnam: Thank you Sze Meng. So bringing it back a little bit more sort of home into the ground as an entrepreneur, why is board composition so important and when should entrepreneurs start to think about board composition?

Sze Meng Soon: So, having been invested to over seven eight companies, and also be on series A all the way to the D kind of management slash board, there are three things to think about one is also the stage of the company in terms of when we are talking about now VC backed company, fast growth company, truly, in series A and B, depending on their investors, you automatically have to give board seats, to obviously people who have invested 25% 30% to your company. So it’s useful to have the conversation for the founder’s CEO, with the investor to think about who is on the board as a board nominee director, to kind of articulate their own expectation or what they need help on and invest, the VC board normally will always also focus to some extent on compliance governance, because their money is in the company. But as the company started to move to series C, D onwards, I think the company does have the capacity to consider more independent board directors if they want, board seats are a very valuable number component in all shareholder agreements, especially if you continue to raise fund investor wants to be on the board. As the founder, you also want to have certain board rights and board seats in order to pass certain board resolutions. So you’ve got to be selective to think about bringing in an independent board advisor, Board members, usually one or two and it really depends on the needs of the business at that point in time. I’ve seen situations where they are bringing people in terms of being able to talk to the regulators, if any financial services, being able to expand in other markets by bringing people who have the exposure, and also bringing people who have certain expertise in a new growth area they are trying to grow into but it will be more applicable for larger VC backed company like Series C onwards. So that’s the more practical component of it. Maybe back to you Abby.

Abby Adlerman: Yeah, thanks. So I’m going to answer the question very specifically from this CEO entrepreneur’s perspective because there’s an important role obviously, that the investor plays in the whole dynamic. But I’m guessing that a lot of you are thinking about how do I build my board as an entrepreneur. And the most important thing, it’s simple and it’s hard at the same time, the most important thing is you want board members who add value. And you have to ask yourself, well, how does somebody add value to me and what I’m doing in this enterprise. Don’t put somebody on your board who adds value for the next quarter or two, it’s way too short term focus. You want to think about somebody who can do that journey with you, and be around for at least a few years. Well, how do board members add value? Well, they can help you think strategically, they can open doors for you, they can bring their own operating expertise to the table, they might be able to help you with fundraising. But then recognize that when they’re helping you and adding value, and doing all these things, as Sze Meng has already referred to, by dint of being a board member, they’re going to come with some responsibilities and some obligations to others.

Now, if you are the only shareholder, and you’re fortunate to be able to fund your own startup yourself, then you are a large part of their constituency. However, odds are, there’s maybe some angel funding or some other constituents, some other investors. And even nowadays, as the role of governance has expanded, there’s employees and customers and sort of a broader constituency, and certainly regulators. So do know that while they’re there to add value, and support you and help you realise your dream, the minute they become a board member, they’re going to also have obligations to other people, and you have to let them do their job. You can’t have them be only in for the fun stuff, to deliver that oversight and be ultimately accountable, because there’s a legal and liability issue at hand. So, choose wisely. The one thing I’ll say, as an entrepreneur myself, who has a fabulous board, and I’m very fortunate is there are times where your board will push you very hard and their service of accountability oversight, or even just to help you grow a business. And sometimes it doesn’t always feel like it’s fun and happy. But usually a great board member, even when they push you hard, will help you be a better entrepreneur and a better CEO coming out the other end. So tough love is a pretty good thing for your board.

Reza Behnam: Thanks, Abby. Let’s pick up from where you just sort of ended, which is sort of when an entrepreneur is trying to figure out the formula for the board composition. Is there one template that fits all approaches? Or how does one go about, for example, thinking about subject matter expertise on the board, and some of those subject matter expertise you just mentioned in terms of opening doors and sales and so forth, versus compliance versus all the other things that the board these days needs to think about diversity, sustainability, privacy, etc. I could go on and on. So how do you manage that? And how do you ensure that the board members have chemistry but also complement each other. It’s a very broad question. But do you have any frameworks to help us organise our thoughts around this?

Abby Adlerman: Yeah, so a lot has to do with this stage of your company and the stage of your business, and I would say in the earliest stage, you may not want to feel this way as an entrepreneur, but I encourage you to think hard about existential issues. Because let’s face it, the first few years are all about, do you have product market fit? Have you been able to get some traction? Can you build a scalable business? And if you’re in those really early days, you want board members that can help you think about those issues, and so, thinking about what are the most important barriers to your success or enablers to your success over the first couple of years and who can help me do that I think is the right question to ask for a board member. So that’s what I would think about in the early days and then as the business grows, you want to complement that you do not want a monolithic board. It’s great if you have somebody who understand sales, but if the third, fourth and fifth personnel understand sales, frankly, if the third, fourth and fifth person are all former CEOs, it’s still monolithic, and diversity of skills is incredibly valuable, including the first one or two board members are they bringing diverse skills from what you have yourself. So I really think you want to think about a tapestry more than anything in those early days this early hires. There are some of the other things you mentioned Reza are important, but maybe a little early to start worrying about ESG or, or more broader diversity. They’re super valuable, but in the early stage, it’s about sort of getting to the next stage.

Sze Meng Soon: Yeah, beyond that, I think one dimension to think about is performance and governance. So you have to look at the composition of your board in terms of whether you can ensure or minimum or at least satisfactory standard of governance. But for VC backed start-up companies, you always try to index also on performance. I think we mentioned the fact across multiple areas, fundraising, market expansion, product specialty, regulator access. So there are multiple ways that you can think through the value that the board member can bring in. I think the second dimension is also to look at your existing management team and your existing management team will evolve over time. So if you have a CFO, who is really competent in say potentially in trade sale, corporate development, or even IPO, then you may not need to bring in board members who have that deep expertise. But let’s say your marketing head actually has only focused on a certain couple of markets, but you may want in bringing board members on other markets that you may want to expand but you have no management experience, expertise. So a very practical way of thinking about it. I think the third part is that for private companies, you do have some leeway in kind of being more focused on performance. But of course, for public listed company, I think, then governance will definitely play a pretty large role in terms of how you’re thinking about that. But that conversation may not be as relevant to the crowd here. But there is something that we should read it keep that in mind. Back to you Reza.

Reza Behnam: Great, thank you Sze Meng. I think there’s a question that came up that’s very relevant. So I’ll address it now, which is, as an entrepreneur, what is the right time to set up a board? And what would be the essential board roles? And I guess I’ll preface that also by saying that, you know, as an entrepreneur, sometimes you don’t have a lot of choice and who joins your board, because it’s the investor who’s assigning somebody to be on your board. So how do you deal with that Sze Meng? When you start up a board first, and then when you do get talked to investors, how do you influence that the choice of board members perhaps?

Sze Meng Soon: Actually, it is a really upstream conversation. So the real conversation that needs to have is, is that the right investor, at this point in my stage or my kind of fundraising, of course, that assume that you actually have the option to choose right in this current climate, you may not have the option to choose who your investor is, but getting the investor in and knowing who is on going to be on a board are very critical conversation to have hats. So do not assume that the partners that’s talking to you will automatically be in the board, it could be somebody else. So it’s just better to have that conversation first. And at the end of the day, for the entrepreneur, CEO, if you don’t have a choice in terms of who, ultimately which investors, you want to kind of raise funds with, then it is really having the expectation conversation with the board member. If not all, VC back kind of nominee directors, ultimately will one first the company to succeed, or the raise the next fund or the growth. And secondly, they definitely do not want the company to kind of appear on the front page of any news, because it will affect their brand and the ability for them to get founders to come to them. So actually, the incentive for the nominee director from the investors are quite aligned with the CEO and the founders. So that’s something that to just consider as you talk to investors. So maybe Abby add something else there.

Abby Adlerman: Yeah, you’ve made a lot of really important points. I would just build on that, that chemistry is very, very important with your board, especially to the extent that you have the opportunity to influence who is because Sze Meng and Reza spoke a little bit about from the investor point of view, but I’m going to address this if the person who asked was thinking this is not about my investors, I don’t have any venture capitalist yet they get a board seat or that’s down the road think about the chemistry the person that you really trust to, handover some of that oversight and that accountability to that really has your back has your interests at heart to help you succeed. Again, tough love is a good thing. But also remember, you don’t have to necessarily put them firmly on your board to be able to get the benefit of their gifts and their insights, you could ask them to be an advisor or make an advisory board, which has less of that some of those statutory governance issues, less of the responsibility, lets them off the hook. And frankly, let you try before you buy, and to test that chemistry. And the final comment I’ll make is to the extent you think you might be raising money in the next year or so, and you do invite this person on your board, make sure that they’re marketable also, that it reflects well, in you that the investors will say, Oh, that’s great that that person is on this board, that gives me a vote of confidence. And there are people that I would like to be associated with. Even if they’re not helping you fundraise their brand, and their reputation could make a big difference.

Sze Meng Soon: And I just want to add on that for any founders, entrepreneur, getting someone to be on the board on a former basis is a very serious consideration. Depending on the shareholder agreement, a board member actually has some decision rights, especially on board resolution matters, depending on the number of board seats, depending on how the SSA is structured. So my advice is for entrepreneur, CEO, if you really want to put that person formally on the board on company listing in Singapore and Accra do look carefully on your constitution and SHA because once the person is on the board, he or she definitely has some decision rights over the company it’s just a matter of how companies are structured. So something to think about.

Reza Behnam: Great, thank you both Abby and Sze Meng. Maybe we can spend a few minutes on what I’m calling sort of board culture and perhaps the role of the leader of the board or chairman or chairwoman in this case, to sort of install or instil sort of things like self-evaluation and refreshing up of the board so it doesn’t become a one off issue when you’re dealing with a board member that might be sort of problematic. Abby, what are some of the best practices with regards to board culture?

Abby Adlerman: So the most important thing I urge everybody to think very seriously about with your board is to have alignment. If you don’t have alignment amongst your board members themselves and the board with management, particularly with those of you who are entrepreneurs, CEOs, you are almost guaranteed to give yourself a hard time, at a minimum a hard time, if not just board failure. Why do I say that? Because alignment is when the very first way of knowing are we all pulling in the same direction, do we value the same things, do we have the same goals, and that goes starting at the very top with mission, don’t think the mission is just for the entrepreneur, the founder or just for the management team, the mission has to be broadly embraced by everybody, especially the board because from your mission, that’s where you have you set your vision, your goals, you cannot set a strategy until you know what your goals are. So getting everybody on the same page and aligned around that, is something that is you can tell I have a lot of passion around this subject, your back to the question of your board chair, that relationship between the board chair and the CEO is so important. It doesn’t mean you always have to agree it doesn’t mean you can’t push back on each other and work through some of these issues. But ultimately, the board chair and the CEO agreeing that you’re going in the same direction is important and holding each other to fair and reasonable expectations everything from how long did the board meetings last, how big should our board be, what are the topics that we’re going to cover, how far and advance should management get an information package to the board and how do we keep the tone in the meetings constructive and forward looking because the hardest thing for any CEO is to have a board that wants to get way in the weeds, way into the details, tried to do the job of management it’s frustrating on both sides, and you lose 80% of the value of a board maybe more if you don’t keep the board forward focused. That’s where the chair plays a critical role. Sze Meng, your thoughts?

Sze Meng Soon: Yeah, and just to build on what Abby says, I think for the CEO, founder entrepreneur who’s looking for Board Chair, I think one critical for the board chair to understand how the board chair works in general. So a good board chair will allow or facilitate very productive open conversation during board meetings, so that everybody can voice their perspective, dissent and actual opinion. That’s number one. Number two, the board chair needs to be experienced enough to understand kind of how businesses work, but also have kind of a stage of their career or stage of their life to understand that they are no longer the CEO in that role and do not matter into management decisions, but to ensure that they protect shareholder focus on a mission and a strategy. So the two big conversations usually at a board can usually be about people and strategy so that’s something to think about in terms of performance, not the very minutiae details. And of course governance and compliance as we have mentioned. I think the third part is that the board chair also in larger boards, so maybe in like much larger company or series E and F Companies, when you have multiple board members and independent board members, the board chair also needs to be able to think through how to work through board committees. So there could be audit committees, there could be nomination committees, there could be remuneration committees, it could be strategy committees, so that’s something that the board chair, together with the CEO also have to think through quite carefully in a larger organisation. So I leave you at that. Thank you.

Reza Behnam: Thank you Sze Meng and Abby. I think two simple phrases that I’ve heard repeatedly SID when they’re talking about startups is as a board member, we have to have our noses in and fingers out and which is a good way to remember and the second one is having the ears to the ground. So I think that summarises a lot of what Abby and Sze Meng you mentioned. I guess I’ll ask one more question Sze Meng as a board member, how do you manage the balance between the alignment we just talked about, you know, alignment around vision, mission, goals, versus oversights? And how do you switch hats, if you will, between somebody who’s making sure that the oversight is looked after a while you’re working with the CEO to accomplish the performance goals?

Sze Meng Soon: Actually, a board member has to do two roles simultaneously and all the time. So in terms of Strategy and Performance, I think the board members really have to hold the management accountable to the budget, and also to the strategy. And if the strategy changed, then there should be clearly articulate and agree among, obviously proposed by the management and agree with the board, especially if the focus of the business changes dramatically. So there’s also to some extent bleed into the compliance and the governance part. So you do not want, let’s say, a company that’s starting to do this. And of course, every company pivots, but if they pivot so drastically, then you need to think about whether this is the right approach and that’s where the board management discussion comes in. Then to your question about the whole compliance part, actually, as a board member, every board member, to some extent, has to sign a lot of documentation. And when I was on the board of the various company, I had to sign documentation regarding to merger acquisitions, share sales, and it’s very important to actually look through the documentation and ask one or two right question, and also have a good relationship between the CEO, the CFO and the board chair, in order to kind of understand some of the big decision that’s being made. So to some extent, if somebody has kind of run businesses before, there’s an intuitive sense in terms of if something doesn’t smell right, but just being aware of the obligation actually helps tremendously.

Reza Behnam: Thank you Sze Meng. Abby, would you like to add to that?

Abby Adlerman: Yeah, I’ll just reinforce Sze Meng’s first point, which is, oversight and alignment are often in service of each other, I don’t think they’re in conflict at all. And in fact, sort of some of the highest value add that a board member brings is by making sure that that alignment is in place, and you do that by providing proper oversight. So I don’t know that you need to set up a natural tension between the two, versus how do they both help fulfil those roles at the same time, and remember, all early stage businesses have to be agile, you have to sort of expect change to happen. And the question is, are we changing for the right reasons at the right time? Or are we changing because we’re not accomplishing what we want to accomplish, in which case, it goes back to oversight and strategy and alignment and all this other thing. So I do think they support each other.

Reza Behnam: Sure, I guess what I was referring to is some of the sort of news reports in one of these sort of cases where there was a fallout, board members, were supporting the entrepreneur to a point of pushing for performance, etc., etc., at the expense of, for example, making sure that audits were done on time. And I guess, those seem to me and I could be wrong, Abby, I’d love to hear your thoughts. But those seem to me like, you have to put your foot down when you need to put your foot down in terms of making sure the audit is done. But at the same time you’re supporting the CEO and the leadership team accomplish goals in an ethical and legal way. So am I missing something there? Or is it a matter of just perspective?

Abby Adlerman: No, I would say that the way I think about it, and it’s one of the biggest challenges for being a public company also, which is what’s your time horizon, right? And if you’re trying to hit some goals, and they’re short term, and it’s at the expense of having a foundationally strong business, then I don’t think the board members are doing their job well, either. So it’s like we have to get an audit done. Well, why first to make sure we have operating controls and we understand where the different assets are and where the liabilities are, etc. But a good board member helps their CEO find their priorities and a lot of that is about priorities. So again, I think they can work together, it’s not easy, but they work together.

Sze Meng Soon: So the way I think about it and maybe more for SID participants here is, if you were to consider being on a board or asked to be on a board of a company, no matter whether it’s private or public is up to us, who are asked to be board member to really ascertain if that’s the kind of company you want to be associated with the culture of the company, have the conversation with the CEO, have the conversation with the CFO before making any decision, because upstream, if you’re already joined a company where the culture is overly focused on performance, and compromising on compliance as one single board member, actually, it’s really hard to turn the tide. And that’s the reality. So actually, the upstream compensation is very helpful. And you have to understand that once you become a board member formally, and you start to sign documents, if something really happens there will be more conversation from regulators and more conversation with people who want to sue the company and the directors are definitely involved in the conversation. So one cannot say that Well, I try my best, there’s nothing that can be done. Company culture is not like that. All of us have a choice to stay on the board or not. So fantastic morality.

Reza Behnam: Thank you, Abby, thank you for Sze Meng. I really appreciate you being guests on today’s show and today’s podcasts. Thank you to the participants who’ve been very active, to the organisers, and to our sponsors, SID and XA Network. Belinda, any last words to say before we dive off?

Belinda Ong: Nothing more except Reza, Abby, Sze Meng thank you. It has been an honour. I really appreciate how generous you have been with your time. Audience on XA Network and SID, thank you so much for joining us again. We will see you at the next event. Have a great weekend.

Sze Meng Soon: Thank you everyone.

Reza Behnam: Thank you everyone.

Abby Adlerman: Cheers.

Reza Behnam: Bye-bye.

Sze Meng Soon: Thank you, everyone. Thank you so much.

Our Guest : Abby Adlerman & Sze Meng

Abby Adlerman is the CEO and founder of Boardspan, a leading cloud based software and advisory company that focuses exclusively on helping Boards of Directors succeed. Abby brings more than 25 years of governance and board experience to Boardspans clients. Previously, she was on the leadership team at Russell Reynolds in Singapore and San Francisco. Abby is an alumnus of Lafayette College and Yale University, where she’s a member of the entrepreneurship advisory board.

Sze Meng has senior leadership roles at Temus, JD.com, SingTel, PayPal and Visa and was a consultant at McKinsey and Monitor Deloitte. He is also the Managing Director of SSM Global Advisory. He was a board member of Go Jek, Tiki, JD.ID and JDL Express Indonesia. He is currently a Board Member of the Singapore Institute of Technology and various social entreprises. He graduated from Stanford University and Kellogg School of Management. He is an angel investor and certified coach.