YT19 | How this Danish woman is creating more women leaders in Singapore

Meet Mette Johansson. She is a consultant, coach, speaker, and trainer, mostly on the topic of leadership and culture change. She has (co) authored five books, all Amazon best-sellers. Her latest book, Narratives, the stories that hold women back at work was published in Singapore with Penguin Random House last week (Nov 28).

In this episode, Mette shares some stories from her time in Asia, from chaotic first impressions in China to the opposite work environments in Shanghai and Tokyo. The conversation takes a turn as Mette explores the myth that women are “too emotional to be leaders” and “not ambitious enough”. The episode is a rollercoaster of cultural highlights, personal stories, and a call to reshape narratives for a better work environment for women leaders.

Discussion Topics: How this Danish woman is creating more women leaders in Singapore

• Introducing Mette Johansson – A coach, speaker, and author
• Mette’s journey – Born in Denmark, brought up in the Netherlands & lived in 11 countries
• What is time – Language and cultural perspectives on time
• Working in Shanghai – Challenges of blending in as a Caucasian woman 
• Mette’s experience in Tokyo – The stark contrast with Shanghai
• Women are too emotional in the workplace – It’s time to challenge narratives
• Women are not ambitious – A result of workplaces designed by men, for men 
• Masculine and feminine characteristics need to come together in the workplace 
• Living in Singapore for 14 years, a cultural melting point 
• Advice for Caucasians working in Asia – be curious and respect the culture
• Closing remarks

Transcript: How this Danish woman is creating more women leaders in Singapore

Yana Fry: Welcome to another episode of YanaTV. Today our guest is Mette Johansson, who is a coach, a speaker, and an author. And we are going to talk about stories that hold women back at work. Mette, I’m so happy to have you here with us today.

Mette Johansson: Thanks for having me, Yana. 

Yana Fry: I’m also very happy that you are here today with us. And let me get straight in. So please tell us where you were born.

Mette Johansson: I was born in Denmark many years ago. I didn’t grow up in Denmark. I grew up in the Netherlands. In fact, I’ve lived in 11 different countries by now. And of course, Asia, which is part of what we’re going to speak about today. I lived in Asia for, I think it’s about 23 years, 14 years in Singapore.

Yana Fry: So when was the first time that you actually came to Asia?

Mette Johansson: late eighties.

Yana Fry: What was the country?

Mette Johansson:  I arrived on a backpack tour over the trans Siberian railway. So in fact, it is Mongolia or Russia. That was the first country on the Asian continent, Mongolia, and then China travelled through China many years ago.

Yana Fry: What was your first impression of China when you arrived there?

Mette Johansson: Oh, chaotic! China is chaotic. China in or around that time, right? That was something quite different from what it is today. So yes it is very difficult to navigate, very difficult to get around without the language. The most interesting story I can share in terms of my first encounters with the culture, I studied Mandarin at university. and along the way, you learn some of the characters over time.

And that’s where I thought, Oh, it’s so irrational. It’s so illogical. And that, in fact, was the big aha, the big learning moment. We were studying the characters for time, and if you think about it, if you think about time in English, it’s linear, where do you think it went? Where was yesterday? Where is tomorrow? If you were to point at it, and think along with this as well, in whatever language you speak, where is time?

Yana Fry: This is a great question. For me again, also being educated in the West you either point from left to right, or you point from below to above. Yeah. as you expand, right?

Mette Johansson: if we look at language, you might have your experience. If you’re thinking along with it, oh it’s way back in the past, or way ahead of us in the future. So that is coming from behind. And going to the front. We’re walking ahead together with time. Now, the Chinese characters that are involving last week, next week, are last week, next week.

Yana Fry: My reaction was, this is irrational, this is illogical. And my next thought was, in fact, time doesn’t have a direction. Human beings are giving it direction. And that was such a big aha moment for me, Mentality, right? How people think. Exactly. The differences in that. 

Mette Johansson: One culture cannot claim ownership. over what’s logic and what’s not. Taking different perspectives is one of the things you definitely are confronted with when you’re travelling across the world. And I think it was a very healthy exercise to be confronted with in around 1990, I guess it was.

Yana Fry:  I’m one of those people who believes that you should learn as many languages as possible. And I can feel when I speak a different language, my mind changes. Like I think differently, I come differently. I almost look at life differently. So it absolutely activates different neural pathways.

Okay. So you were studying Mandarin and then you said you lived in 11 countries and I know that you have been in countries like Taiwan or you lived in Shanghai, right? If I remember correctly. What was happening there?

Mette Johansson: I studied in Taipei in Taiwan. I studied Mandarin for a year there. And after I graduated from my MBA, some years later, I worked in Shanghai. This was in 1996 I had studied Mandarin at university and in China at that point of time it was not as much of a melting pot as it is today.

Today you have people from all over China working in all corners of China. At that point of time there were a lot of people from Shanghai speaking the Shanghai dialect, and I did not understand what they would speak about when they spoke amongst each other in the office.

And I was one of the few foreigners working in that office at the moment. It was difficult at the Like to blend in. It was difficult to blend in. We didn’t do the same things in our spare time and that’s why it was very difficult to make friends in Shanghai.

On top of that, I also got very sick because of the polluted water there and that made it even less fun to work in Shanghai. I’m going to Beijing next week and it’s a completely different environment today in comparison to what it was. Decades ago.

Yana Fry: That was decades ago. That was Shanghai. And then I also know you used to work and live in Tokyo. Yes. So I’m curious, how was Japan and when was that?

Mette Johansson: Japan was in two different periods. So it was from 97 till 2000, and from 2003 to two thousand and six. So six years in total, two different periods.

Yana Fry: And how was that working there as a, Caucasian white woman, right? Blonde, blue eyes. Japan is known to have a relatively close culture, especially people who are friendly, but not too friendly. Yeah. So how was that?

Mette Johansson: Now, what I understood from working in Japan was that, of course, your specific environment makes such a big difference, whether you like it or not, what your memories are going to be. I have fond memories of Shanghai, Japan where I ended up having to be flown out of the country because of health reasons that, of course, left some negative thoughts.

I didn’t appreciate it very much at the time, of course. Now, in Tokyo, we have made great friends. I, I. I felt very comfortable working in Tokyo. One of the reasons that I explain this with is that I was already so different that…

Yana Fry: How you look, clearly. Clearly,

Mette Johansson: And looking so different, it means that you don’t have to try and fit in. Now, the difference between Shanghai and Tokyo was that in Tokyo, you would have similar hobbies, similar interests, similar things you would do in your spare time compared to the local population. We were living side by side with each other.

People from the country, meaning you get to know each other, you later on when I had children, my children went to local schools, or at least international mixed schools at some stage, and that means that the other parents that you meet, they’re local Japanese people, and that was one thing that was very fascinating about living in Japan that because we are on the same development level in terms of economical development,

It was much easier to get to know people there than it had been for me in Shanghai. Although, I’d say that today most people think that it’s probably easier to integrate in Shanghai than it is in Japan.

Yana Fry: At the moment, right?

Mette Johansson: Exactly. Exactly. I had the opposite experience.

Yana Fry: Very And I know you have just recently released a book, the stories that hold women back at work. And I assume that those are stories of women across different countries in Asia. Tell me a few. What are the stories that hold women back at work? So now we all want to know.

Mette Johansson: All right. There’s plenty of stories. Okay,

Yana Fry: Give us one or two, okay?

Mette Johansson: I’ll give you a couple. Yes. The main one that I absolutely like sharing is that women are too emotional.

So they cannot be leaders because we’re too emotional. And I interviewed a chief human resource officer from India, and her comment was, are women too emotional? You should see the boys in the boardroom. If they don’t get their way, they will slam their fists on the table, they will shout, they will jump up.

Women are too emotional. Ha! And it is true. We are often having this narrative, this myth, that women are too emotional. When we think more about it, it is not about being more or less emotional. It is simply that some emotions are accepted at the workplace and some aren’t.

And isn’t it interesting because the emotions that are affecting others negatively Anger, those that are accepted and emotions that are more affecting ourselves like frustration or sadness or stress, they are not accepted. Emotions that are affecting others negatively are accepted. And when we are frustrated about something that’s more inward-looking, That is not accepted. And then we call women more emotional and they’re not. They’re too hysterical, too emotional, they cannot be leaders.

Yana Fry: It’s interesting. I actually never thought about it from that perspective on this topic, but it’s very true. And I think usually a lot of emotions which are being expressed outside, tend to be perceived as masculine and a lot of emotions which are internalised, uh, perceived as feminine.

And here is That separation. I wonder, so what can we do about it in the workplaces, please? We have to do something about it.

Mette Johansson: We have to do something about it. It’s about changing perspectives. And that’s why my book is called Narratives, the stories of women back at work. Because they are stories that we are giving life by retelling them.

By not thinking about them. Like the story I started off with, that time has a direction, we are not stopping up and thinking about it. We need to stop for a moment and think about, hang on, what is rational here? Or what’s really the real story here? Does it make sense? And by shedding more light on different perspectives, that is when we can shatter those narratives.

Yana Fry: Conversation. I’m hearing credits. We need to have more conversations about this topic and perhaps also in the workplace. That would be, I would encourage you guys when you go to work or if you’re in the company, even more, please have a conversation.

It would benefit everyone about our emotions, which are accepted and which are not. Okay. So this is one story. So what else do we have that holds women back?

Mette Johansson:  There’s lots of different stories about what work women can or can’t do. Women can’t work in sales. 

Yana Fry: I know some phenomenal women who are like really good salespeople.

Mette Johansson: Absolutely because communication, and not least listening, is what we usually say that women are quite good at. So why can’t they be salespeople? It might be that it is linked to some of the entertainment

Yana Fry: like in the evening, you mean going to bars and dinners and after dinner program where women and cigar bars where women are not very

Mette Johansson: Exactly, It is some of the entertainment that’s going on where some of the deals are made in the evening. It’s maybe more travelling. So those are some of the reasons why a lot of people think that women can’t be salespeople. Whereas again, if we look at what are some of the things that a lot of women are very good at, they’re absolutely core essential to being a good salesperson.

Yana Fry: We just recently had an interview with Jerome Joseph, right? The branding expert. And I remember that he said that people actually make emotional decisions when they buy something, and then they rationalise it with their logic.

So ironically, you could say that women are much better at triggering other people’s emotions, whether it is good or bad. That’s the whole other conversation but to be at it. And so when it comes to presenting something from an emotional point of view, that’s how people buy or don’t buy, so sales, give me one more. So What is something else that you feel holds women back?

Mette Johansson: One of the things is what we say about women not being ambitious or mothers not really wanting a career. That is one thing that I hear very often. As part of my work, I also do some women in leadership programs.

And as part of these programs, we are doing your big audacious goal. What is that big career goal? That really nice to have is if you nailed that job, you would just have made it.

Yes! What very often happens in one of these courses is that one or two women say, I’m not really ambitious. What I respond to that situation then is what if you were a man? And it’s so interesting. Every single time you have one of the women who said, I’m not really ambitious, pick up their pen and start planning for that big audacious

So why is it that we’re saying that women are not ambitious? It is probably because they see themselves in how the workplace is today. And let’s face it. The workplace has been designed by men. For men. 

Yes. And not necessarily with women in mind. Yeah. And if you don’t believe me, look at the books that are taught at MBA programs. I went back and looked at my MBA school books and they’re all written by the white American able bodied, pretending to be straight, at least, if not straight, man.

How many million people is that? That’s a hundred million people who do that? are deciding what the gold standard of business has to be. This is horrible.

That is reality. So the business world has been designed by men, for men, and not with women in mind. And that is why women often don’t see themselves as leaders. They don’t see themselves as having a career. They might also have obligations at home.

Yana Fry: And then they’re worried whether it’s going to take them away from their children, or their spouse, or any other responsibilities they have. They still want to show up as a mother, or wife, or daughter in law, right?

Mette Johansson: There’s a lot of factors that are playing into this. Also that women think that there’s too much politics that they don’t want to be dealing with or they feel that there are many other tasks that they have to do that they don’t really want to be doing. For example? Whether it’s late nights.

Yana Fry: Again, entertainment weekend. Which is often family time. Exactly.

Mette Johansson: And those are limiting factors that hold women back because you don’t necessarily need to work more to advance in your career. I like that.

Yana Fry: I think everyone would like that.

Mette Johansson: It is about output. It is about making sure that you are delivering quality. You’re working with your people, making sure that your teams are delivering. And there’s smarter ways of working than working harder all the time.

Yana Fry: I know that’s your theme, right? When you go into work with people, it is authentic leadership. And so I’m just curious also when we talk about men and women at the workplace, does that play a role? That somehow women feel that by, They’re soft spoken, that their body composition and structure is different, they come across differently when they come in their boardroom, they dress differently. And so do they feel that somehow impacts their ability to progress? and impacts their leadership style.

Mette Johansson: Absolutely. There, we used to also divide Characteristics up in more male characteristics and more female characteristics. The more male characteristic of being assertive, wanting to knock out. Go get her, all of that. Whereas the women, the female characteristics would be seen more as nurturing, caring, empowering, taking care of your teams, collaborating.

And I do that there’s a tendency to speak more about Collaborative characteristics and competitive characteristics because it means that you don’t have to be one or the other just because you are identifying with one gender or the other. So I do believe that’s a very good environment or a very good point of departure for women to be able to be more successful at work.

In fact, I believe that when men feel more and more comfortable about embracing the nurturing characteristics. They are also opening the doors for more women to lead who don’t want to lead by knocking down the competition to win over others. It’s opening the door for women if we allow anybody to lead with collaborative or competitive characteristics.

Yana Fry: It’s another very interesting point of view. I know many men and I know many business owners and many of them have been here and also like in my coaching professional life and the criticism that I often hear from guys. This term, it’s women in the workplace when it comes to leadership and the way we are, that we may be not entirely Goal oriented or result oriented because when you try to be more collaborative and inclusive and empathetic. In my opinion, it often delays productivity, right?

And then the company needs to make money, it needs to close deals, a certain number of deals. So how do we combine those that business is still a business, but people actually feel that they’re cared for and not, not stressed.

Mette Johansson: The answer is in your question. We combine  it.

Yana Fry: We combine it. Okay.

Mette Johansson: Yes, we combine it.

Diversity increases group intelligence because we can bring together different perspectives. And organisations today do not function well if we’re only going to be competitive, focusing on results. And there’s plenty of companies who’ve shown that out there today as well, that by bringing in more human elements, they are becoming more.

Profitable as well. Microsoft is one of the companies that’s gone very much away from focusing on products and profitability to much more people and purpose as well. And they’ve been doing pretty well. The little dip where everybody was dipping after COVID at the tail end of COVID and they’re recovering very nicely from it again.

Yana Fry: Just moving conversation because I know we’re coming towards the end of the interview soon. So what is it, 10, 11 right? How is your experience?

Mette Johansson: I love it.

What I like about Singapore is that It’s really that melting pot. I’ve lived in 11 different countries, and being in a place like Singapore, where already Singapore society is very mixed, uh, it is a place where different perspectives can come together.

And Singapore has also been very open to embracing foreigners, regardless of their backgrounds, as long as foreigners are adding value to Singapore. So overall, of course, when you come from a different place, Singapore. 

It’s safe, English is spoken. There’s great infrastructure. It’s business friendly. Yes, Singapore is definitely one of the places where it’s easy to integrate as somebody coming from a

Yana Fry: And maybe the final if you were to give advice, are there Western Caucasian looking people who are everywhere around them maybe considering to come and work in Asia. Maybe let’s focus on, Singapore, South East Asia, Culturally a bit more close. What would you tell them?

Mette Johansson: To me, with cultural intelligence the main part is curiosity and respect.

Have curiosity for wherever you go and make sure that you also respect that other point of view. That you are respecting that people are different, that they have different points of views.

Remembering that logic is not something that we can have ownership over. There are different ways of doing things. So curiosity and respect is really what brings you a very long 

Yana Fry: Thank you so much. Thank you.

That was Mette Johansson on YanaTV today. And Mette and I would love to hear from you guys in the comments. So please let us know if you have worked and lived in different countries of Asia, and which countries were there, and how did you like it, or not. What was your honest experience? And we would love to have these conversations. And especially when we talk about stories that hold women back at work, I think it is just a Contribution and conversation.

So if you want to add your opinion, feel free to do that too. And I personally would love to thank Muse Studio for hosting YanaTV, we absolutely love it here. And remember guys to subscribe to the channel and share this episode with friends. The conversations shared with our loved ones are becoming so much deeper. And I will see you next time.