#101 Leadership in uncertain times – science, wellness and business transformation

How to transform leadership through wellness and science-backed insights? In this episode, my guest is Roshan Thiran, founder of Leaderonomics. Roshan delves into the deep connections between leadership, well-being, and personal development, sharing insights from his own transformative experiences. From overcoming personal health challenges to redefining leadership amidst rapid technological and social changes, Roshan offers a wealth of knowledge on thriving in today’s complex world.

He discusses how personal crises, such as his wife’s battle with cancer, reshaped his perspective on health and well-being, leading him to embrace a science-backed approach to lifestyle changes. Roshan also explores the concept of “Wellness Wednesdays” which he initiated to educate others about maintaining health through science. Tune in now!

Discussion Topics: Leadership in uncertain times

• Introduction to Roshan Thiran and Leaderonomics – What can personal crises teach us about leadership and wellness?
• Roshan’s Personal Health Struggles and Transformation – How did a personal health crisis reshape Roshan’s approach to wellness?
• Starting Wellness Wednesday – What is Wellness Wednesday, and how can it change your approach to health?
• The Philosophy of Victimhood in Malaysia – How does overcoming victim mentality impact personal and professional success?
• Transformation in Malaysian Leadership – What can turning around a failing business teach us about leadership?
• Integrating Technology and Leadership – How does modern technology redefine traditional leadership roles?
• Future of Leadership in Rapid Changes – What skills are necessary for leading in times of uncertainty?
• Personal Goals and Future Projects – What personal missions is Roshan looking forward to in 2024?
• Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript: Leadership in uncertain times

Roshan Thiran: one of the things I realized is that um, there’s a lot of victims Uh in malaysia, there’s a lot of people in malaysia that were like, um, I I was born in the wrong place You know wrong mother wrong this wrong that you know, it’s all all about victimization and you know, I can’t do anything You know, this is you know, this is the situation.

I mean, this is the circumstance and and to me i’ve always been You know, in a, in a philosophy that, Hey, you can fix what you can fix. And then you try your best to, to influence the other things, uh, as much as you can. 

Yana Fry: Welcome to the Timeless Teachings. Today, our guest is Roshan Siran, who is the founder of Ludironomics. And we’re going to be talking about wellness, well being, leadership, AI, what is happening in the world today, and how a human being, especially if you are in a leadership position, can prepare to what is happening right now and what is yet to come.

Roshan, thank you for joining us today. And before we dive into your subject matter, I personally would love to hear from you, your personal angle on wellness, wellbeing, consciousness, human development, how does it connect to your life?

Roshan Thiran: I think many, many leaders go through this, uh, when they work very hard and they, they overwork and commit themselves. It happened to me, you know, uh, fainting a number of times, uh, you know, uh, over exhaustion and fatigue. Um, you know, you kind of start to come to a point where you say, I need to reflect and change my life.

And I did that, uh, a couple of years ago. about six, seven years ago, I think my wife, uh, had a, had a cancer. And, and that sort of changed, uh, different perspective also, because as I started to journey with her in terms of fixing our nutrition, our diet, our exercise, and a whole bunch of other things, I started to learn there’s a science uh, with well being, there’s a science in, in that, that, that is not necessarily thought, right? Uh, so it works, um, the Harvard professor, David Sinclair, is doing a lot of work in terms of reverse, uh, aging, um, and how that works and fix, fixing, uh, the epigenome, uh, and, and some of the other issues that may be, uh, Um, affected.

And then, you know, you look at Wim Hof and how he cannot get sick, right? I mean, he, he, you know, you can inject him with E. coli and, uh, and, and COVID and, and, and he still can’t get sick. Right. So, I mean, there’s, there’s a lot of interesting, things that are happening. Uh, when it comes to, uh, health and wellness and, and for me, exploring this was, uh, very interesting, right?

Uh, and, and that sort of started my journey and which is how, you know, it kind of led to me saying, hey, I can live long, um, and, and try to fix myself, but I want my friends to come along, right? So I started the, the wellness Wednesday so that my friends can also understand the science behind wellness.

Yana Fry: Thank you for sharing. And first of all, I want to say I’m so sorry that you and your wife had to go through this, you know, that I lost my first husband due to cancer. So I understand very well, you know, everything that sort of it takes to to get healed also around it. So I’m very happy that you are where you are.

And now you’re integrating this into your life. Um, tell us a little bit more about the Wellness Wednesday. So what have you learned yourself? Because that has been already a year at least, right, that you are doing this?

Roshan Thiran: Yeah, it started with me studying, um, uh, some of the work of David Sinclair, right? So, you know, David Sinclair is a Harvard professor, um, who’s basically taken rats, um, and able to make, uh, blind, uh, blind rats, uh, able to see.

And likewise, you know, he’s managed to reverse the aging, uh, or push them forward, accelerate the aging, you know, sort of like the Benjamin Button rule. he uses a lot of medicine, metformin, pharmaceutical products to actually help you in that space.

Um, and then a number of years ago, one of my students, um, he became, uh, one of the lead. In terms of Wim Hof, uh, understanding what Wim Hof did, um, and, and being able to deploy some of the breathing technology, uh, that Wim sort of, uh, uh, sort of postulates. 

 To me, you know, it’s fascinating to see that, you know, Wim Hof did it, right? I mean, he’s not just himself. He trained many, many others, um, to have that resistance.

And for me, you know, the last maybe three years, not to be able to fall sick, uh, has been incredible, you know, uh, and just the simple stuff, right? Uh, you know, you’re talking about, uh, moving from very hot, uh, and cold environments, uh, uh, the extreme, you know, uh, forcing your body through extremities.

Um, and, and, and occasionally doing the right kind of breathing to be able to, uh, enable yourself to, uh, be able to use your mind, right. To be able to, um, to, to manage, uh, the stresses that, that, that, uh, and the, and the sort of, uh, be able to reject some of the negativity that, that, uh, permeates around us.

You know, so, so those, those, those are a little bit about some of the things we talked about wellness. And obviously there’s also doctors, um, you know, that come in and talk a little bit about exercise and nutrition and other, other different aspects.

Yana Fry: I know that you have a very intense, hectic schedule, and you meet a lot of people, you work with a lot of people, you organize huge conferences for leaders, right? I mean, I’m based in Singapore, you’re based in Kuala Lumpur, that’s how we met also when I came, I think it was two years ago. It was one of the Leaderonomics event, where together we can change the world, and there was one of the speakers there, so I saw it with my own eyes.

 So you said for the last two three years not falling sick with the schedule that you have and meeting all kinds of people which is Who are also traveling from all over the world.

That means, you know, they might carry germs when they come and see you, you never know. And, and you also do a lot of work with leaders of the companies. It means that they’re also travel and they’re also exposed to a lot of things, including stress. So for you personally, um, are there any particular tools that you are using for you that you feel help you to stay healthy?

Roshan Thiran: Yeah, I mean, for me, the, the, I start my day, um, you know, pretty much in terms of, you know, spending some time, uh, meditating and, and, um, you know, sort of reading. And then I also, uh, uh, start the day with a very cold shower. Uh, you know, it helps, uh, to wake you up. Uh, then I go, uh, exercise. Um, so all this is done, uh, you know, before like almost 7 or 7.

30, uh, AM 

And then I’m off to a busy day, right? But, but I think, I think, um, uh, stress is something that is natural, right? I mean, it’s going to happen all around us. Uh, and it’s also our philosophy and our perspective of how, um, we deal with it. to be able to be grateful, to be able to be content, to be able to look things not, uh, as a, as a, as a victim, um, to feel that you have a bit of power.

Uh, and you’re able to change circumstances. and this is maybe a little bit of a journey myself when I came back to malaysia So I worked in the us for a company called general electric for many many years Uh running businesses and in big global roles and when I came back I came to run an aviation business and and one of the things I realized is that um, there’s a lot of victims Uh in malaysia, there’s a lot of people in malaysia that were like, um, I I was born in the wrong place You know wrong mother wrong this wrong that you know, it’s all all about victimization and you know, I can’t do anything You know, this is you know, this is the situation.

I mean, this is the circumstance and and to me i’ve always been You know, in a, in a philosophy that, Hey, you can fix what you can fix. And then you try your best to, to influence the other things, uh, as much as you can. Right. And so, you know, I took this shop, which was one of the most, uh, underperforming aviation shops in the world.

Um, they, they were really bad. I mean, uh, uh, 30 million revenue, uh, us. 30 million revenue shop losing 60 million very bad turnaround times, you know, like like, you know, normal turnaround time of a Typical business would be like 60 days this one like 500 days on average and stuff like that And and we took it and we made that shop in malaysia Which is completely run by malaysians right into the best overall shop in the world and and to me, right?

It showed them that, um, you know, if you are able to take a lousy, uh, underperforming shop and make it best in the world, uh, you can do anything, right? I mean, and, and a lot of these guys today run, uh, a lot of the aviation shops in the world is run by a lot of Malaysians and, and they all come from this shop.

And today, this shop is even bigger. It’s like, 20, 30 times bigger. And to me, that started the journey of saying, Hey, I need to help people, um, understand that there’s power.

Um, and they cannot be victims, right? They have to, uh, feel that they can do something that there’s, you know, this learned helplessness is, is bad. Right. Um, and this ability to find, you know, the mind side to move it away. Cause our first inclination is to be very negative focused. How do you help them to move it and say, let’s look at the positive.

Let’s look at the benefits, um, of your mind’s eye. Uh, and, and ultimately there was a lot of grief, right? There’s, you know, we, we, we have separation and you know, with this changing, whenever there’s a change that happens, Oh, I’m grief. I want to always, I want, you know, helping them to, to sort of, uh, be grateful for the past, forgive, and then move to this, uh, new attachment, right?

This new, new title or new territory or new boss or new structure of the company. And to me, that started that work and I realized the transformation happened, uh, enabling those things, moving people from powerlessness to feeling that they can do something, even the little that they can do, enabling them to move their minds and saying, let’s not focus on the negative and focus on the positive and ultimately, uh, also enabling them to overcome the grief, to reattach.

Um, and when you started to do that, right, you started to see people change. You started to see, you know, turn around time, get better, you know? And, and I say, Hey, this process can be replicated. Right. So, um, it started the journey of. Enabling organizations and the Malaysian government came to me a couple of years later and say, hey, uh, You know help us in terms of some of the entities that you know And and they use that that that entity that I turn around as a case study.

Um, and and and throughout the times, right? um, I realized that Um, enabling and that’s the basis of Leaderonomics, right? I mean, we said, let’s do this as young as possible. Let’s bring it to children. Let’s bring it to kids. Let’s bring to youth. Let’s empower them, uh, to say that they can make a difference.

Um, which is how we started this thing called MAD, right? Making a difference, a MAD movement. Um, which is one of our big entities of Leaderonomics is this MAD movement. So, so that’s kind of the longer story of how, you know, I got into this whole leadership development space.

Yana Fry: What do you think makes a really good modern leader?

Roshan Thiran: if you ask this question 20 years ago, they will say there’s seven steps. There’s this, there’s that, there’s a process to being a leader, right? 

And then, then, you know, after a couple of years, there’s a new way. So like, for example, you know, in the past we use fax machines and then now we use, uh, then, then there was email. And And today’s WhatsApp and Telegram and God knows what, we cannot understand what, right? So, so the, the, the thing is there’s a small time in between, call it transition time.

And the problem is that usually when there is a O way. A short transition and there’s a new way now the problem today is because we have physical changes with robotics 3d printing and driverless cars. We have biological changes with the genome mapping project with predictive medicine and we have digital changes with blockchain with Generative ai so you’ve got three big revolutions happening at the same time and they are converging what you have is that Uh, this is the old way, which is we, we understand the old ways using email, using this, this, how we communicate.

This is the new way. The new way has no standards yet. We don’t know which is the right new way. We don’t know whether it’s Bitcoin or Ethereum, or we know it’s crypto, but we don’t know which coin we don’t, we don’t know which technology. We don’t know which AI is it. Chatty PT plot or Gemini, or it’s very confusing.

And so what happens is we are in a time of transition. No transition has no roots. It’s like many years ago when. Horses was the standard and then cars came in and people say, no, no, no, we want to defend horses and you know, ultimately cars won, but there was a time of transition where, where there was no traffic lights.

There was no petrol stations or gas stations. There was nothing. And so it was a mess. It was a wild, wild west, right? Cars are hitting, uh, horses. Horses are getting upset. The transport business is getting very upset. No, transport business is a horse. No, transport business is cars and there’s all this fight, right?

Now, we are in that environment. Where there is a transitionary time. We are neither in the new way, new way, nor are we the old way. We are in the time of transition. Now we are called to be leaders in this time of transition. When there’s no rules, how do you lead when there is confusion, when there’s chaos?

Uh, so in the past leadership was really about, okay, we want to achieve a certain goal and here’s where we are, you know, we kind of have a roadmap to get there. Today, you say, I want to get to a certain goal, but the roadmap to get there is not very clear because. The world can change every two years and every three years and every five years, maybe sometimes months, right?

So, so you, you may have a goal as a leader, but the journey that is unclear. And so leadership is a little bit more, um, minute in the sense that you need to set up milestones to say what’s milestone number one, and don’t focus on the end goal. Just focus on milestone number one and get to milestone number one.

And, and transitionary leadership is also a little bit more paradoxical, right? Uh, because, uh, sometimes you need to break the rules. But sometimes you break the rules, you go to jail, but you know, you know that you got to, you got to know when it’s the right time. Sometimes you must talk, sometimes you must listen, sometimes you must quit.

You know, it’s not worth it. You know, it’s not this, this, this journey is not worth it. I quit and I start something new. Uh, but many times the old leadership, they say, you know, leaders never quit, you know, uh, winners never quit and so on and so forth. But, but the world today is such that it’s become a little bit more paradoxical, right?

And so to me, that, that is important in leadership to understand that it’s a changing world. And we have to work in a flux in a transitionary time. And that means the rules are ever changing. That means that we need to be able to flip and flop, uh, between two extremes in a very agile way.

Yana Fry: And what kind of quality do you think a human being needs to have to be able to do that? To be actually, you know, stable and solid and effective during the transition time?

Roshan Thiran: So I think, I think one of the things that when, you know, we crave is stability, um, but every transition in history, right? So if you look at, um, the previous transition was when cars and airplanes and telephones and electricity, this is not 18, 19, 18, 80 to about 1915. That was when a lot of inventions, radio, TV, uh, banks, uh, uh, currency, I mean, all these things were invented at that time, but you know, those transition actually resulted in World War I in 1915.

Uh, the, the Spanish flu in 1919, the Great Depression in the twenties, and it resulted in World War II in the 1930s. So every transition, right, is marked by a time of confusion, chaos, disruption. Um, and we can see the same thing happening now. We see when politicians don’t understand the world they fight.

It’s the easiest thing to do, right? Um, and, and we see, you know, whether it’s the war in Ukraine or Gaza and all these things, right? It’s just a hallmark of, um, the transitionary times. Right. It’s always marked by that. I mean, all through the French revolution in the earlier, uh, industrial revolution, there’s always revolutions, um, that cause, uh, because when there’s confusion, there’s no stability.

So I think one of the things we have to understand is probably it’s not going to be much stability for the next number of years. Uh, so what we need to do is we need to figure out how to create control. Um, and, and be able to control our environment, our stresses, our health, our ability to lead, uh, our sanity, uh, in this time of turbulence and somewhat instability that’s around us.

So it doesn’t mean when there’s instability around us, we cannot be stable, we cannot be centered, we cannot become, we cannot be, um, driving the initiative that we want to drive. Um, so I think we, we, we aspire so much for global stability. Um, but probably the next 10, 15 years, I cannot see that happening.

Uh, not, not with the lack of standards, right? Because a world when there’s no standards, we cannot cling onto anything. So, you know, the world rested in 1948 when United Nations set up standards. Here’s the standards for healthcare, WHO, here’s the standards for children, UNICEF. Here’s the standards for fighting, you know, Geneva convention.

So when, when you set up standards, then there’s, there’s stability. So globally, that will probably not be much stability in terms of technology business, uh, with all the disruptions around it. Um, but I think where it’s important for us as leaders to understand how do we create a sense of stability for us, a sense of calmness, a sense of ability to be able to see the next step, right?

I mean, don’t, don’t need to see, you know, you have a big end goal. I want to achieve certain things. That’s great, but you cannot see 10 steps. Let’s just see one steps and be able to move to that one step with clarity, with purpose, and with, uh, you know, sort of. You know, with, with dedication and, and, and, and sort of, uh, uh, assertiveness, right?

Um, and I think if you can do that, and then when we reach that step and we’ve succeeded, say, let’s look at the next step, let’s look at the next step. And I think that’s where it’s slightly different. It’s no more 10 year roadmap or five year roadmap. It’s more of let’s take Steps towards the big destination.

And so, so to me, to me, that’s the hallmark of, of leadership today. Right. And I think when leaders try to say, Oh, I got this big game plan. I think they’re kind of BS ing and. You know, it’s, and then people see through it, right?

I mean, the employees see through it and said, come on, you got to be kidding me. Right. Uh, how can you know what’s going to happen? Right. Um, and I think that that’s where authenticity, that’s where, you know, transparency, you know, you say, look, I don’t know the answers, but I may be able to push us to step one, so let’s focus on step one and let’s forget about the rest.

Yana Fry: When I listen to you, I do hear a lot about authenticity and transparency. And it’s very interesting that you say that for the next 10, 15 years, there will be no stability in the world. And I think I agree with you on that. And it also just makes me reflect how important it is then, just as you said, to find this stability within ourselves.

So it’s a little bit like when there is a tornado. And then you need to be this eye of the storm, right? So if everything’s just changing constantly, governments are changing, social rules are changing, technology is changing, currency is changing, you know, business rules are changing. It’s like a constant change.

So how do you then as a leader stay so stable? And I believe it by becoming this eye of the storm, which then brings us back to this whole conversation about wellness, wellbeing, human development, consciousness, because any tools in this area fundamentally about that. So how do you master yourself? How do you stabilize your mind?

 So if you’re a leader of the company, let’s say I hear it very often from people, you also have to be very practical. You have to pay people monthly when you’re an entrepreneur.

Okay, maybe you have the character that can deal with risk, but your employees often don’t. They want to have paycheck every month. which then pressure on you to make sure that happens. And it doesn’t always happen these days. I hear it from many people with also kind of funding issues and, you know, just sometimes just short, even to pay the salaries.

And it just, as you’re like in the last few years, and just, as you said, The old system is not very understanding because the banks are still demanding, you know, monthly payments. And even the government, if you, like as a company, maybe miss some payment and God forbid someone from your employees will, you know, say something in terms of official complaint and the government is going to go after you.

So, uh, I’m not sure they would understand that, you know, we’re in a transition time, this one step at a time. So in those kind of institutions, they’re like, show me a 10 year plan. And, and, and, and how are you going to do that? And this is what you were talking about it. I love how you put it together. It’s we exactly between this old and the new where on individual level, and that includes companies because they still run by people, by founders.

So on individual people understand. That we are transitioning and we need to be flexible, but the structures are not supporting that. So it creates a bit of a dilemma, don’t you think?

Roshan Thiran: Yeah, no, it does it does so so you think about um, the gig economy, right? um, so when the when when the gig economy essentially started when one person said that hey, um, I’m upset because me and b a and b we are getting paid the same We’re doing the same sort of work, but i’m doing 10 times more Uh, and this person is getting paid the same as me and then they talk to hr He said no, no, you wait for your annual increment you wait for your this and that and so a a decides Okay, i’m gonna go and sell my output You To other companies, right?

So that’s how gig, the gig, but now it goes. And then all the top performers, right? They start to say, I can do the same. I want to go into the gig economy. Now, what happens is companies end up with the non performance many times, right? The guys who are not, uh, who want the stability. And so then the company said, I still want that output.

I want, so then they start to say, let’s, uh, bring back these gig guys and buy some of the output. Now, what happens is structurally, when you structure a hierarchy, the gig guys can’t really fit in because they’re neither employees nor this. And so because they’re not employees, they don’t care about your business.

They just give you the output and they don’t bother. But you want them to care. You want them to connect. You want them to stitch. You want them to make your product better. Um, and so because new companies, they start and say, I don’t want a hierarchy where a pyramid, I want a tree maybe where at the bottom is the leaders and the roots, and then on top of the branches, or I want a network base.

And so new models start to come like a network based model where here’s network A, network B, network C, and employees full time and part time and gig can all be Seated in this network and sometimes you’re in two or three networks and there’s a node, right? And so, you know as companies break then you see the old guys and saying they, they, they, oh, we tried this gig thing It doesn’t work But it works for the network guys because they’ve restructured the company to make it work right now You start to think about all the different things.

The transition is gonna cost AI You know how AI is gonna change your products how AI is gonna change the way you engage with employees You know with with with tools like happily and budaya. I mean that those are very powerful tools that Can, can give HR understanding of how your employees angry with the boss.

Is he angry with yourself? Um, you know, you see having a bad day, you know, what’s his happiness level or her happiness level. I mean, all these tools, you know, enable you to have deep insights that then you can actually, and you can automate it sometimes that now all these things are going to change the world.

So how do you start to, you know, first is the realization, right? That, that you need to embed a lot of these things in the second is you need to make changes structurally to the company. Um, and many companies are unwilling to do that. 

So the things you talk about, even startups, when they start up, they follow their parents. Oh, this is how you structure a company. They listen to this old advice on how companies should be structured. And ultimately they say, I’m struggling for loans. I’m sorry for this. I’m sorry for revenue. And whereas you see, some guys are so successful, uh, like, Oh, no problem.

We set up and then six months later, we are, we’re making loads of money and you’re like, what’s happening? Why is this happening? Right. And, and it’s very simple, right? It’s because, and it’s same with me, right? When the pandemic hit our company, we went down from, you know, millions of revenue down to zero, right?

Because we are a learning and development organization fundamentally. And we do community work, right. Um, with, with the profits that we make. So, you know, it’s like suddenly it’s down to zero revenue. How do we, So you gotta say, okay, who are the guys making revenue out there? Why are they making revenue and why are we not?

And then you start to say, okay, we need to morph very quickly. Um, and then you realize the organization doesn’t want, no, no, no, don’t worry. The pandemic is only three months. We’ll be fine. And then you just wait, you just wait. And so you suddenly realize that, okay, this organization doesn’t want to change.

So I just have to leave that and then create another organization so that, and that one is a startup, right? So it’s not going to yield much. Uh, but as they grow, hopefully these guys also grow. You end up one with 80 percent of business, not 20, because you know, there’s always like newspapers, right?

Somebody is always wanting to read a newspaper. However, in the past 80 percent of people read newspapers today, maybe 10%, 20 percent read newspapers, right? So there’s always going to be a small business for the original guys. But it’s not really large. There’s always going to be the horse business, but horse used to be transportation, it moved to recreation.

Right? Uh, so there’s always some residual for a business, but you’ve got to realize that it’s, that won’t be your core business. You need to create a new core business. And to me, that, that is the understanding that, and many entrepreneurs refuse to acknowledge that, Oh, I’ve rested 10 years or 15 years and dah, dah, dah, you know, what’s happening, but transitions are that.

Transition means, you Something’s going to change. Um, and unfortunately for us, uh, or fortunate, right? I mean, it depends on how your perspective, because you can become a billionaire or you can become a person who loses everything, right? Uh, cause that’s what transition does, right? That’s right. Um, so, so then it goes back to the mindset.

Am I with them and saying, Oh, you know, why is the world like this? Why is that? Why is this guy, the prime minister? Why is this? Why is that? I mean, you can complain or you can say, Hey, let’s use this as opportunity. See what are the gaps. What are the pain points of people, how can I address the pain point, and how can I solve it?

And if you solve it well, you know, you’re an entrepreneur, you make money, right?

Yana Fry: If we talk about companies, how are you said, let’s say companies of the future generation, right? This emerging generation, let us maybe just more specific so that we all understand and people understand who are listening to us. We just go through like some, you know, tips on how actually the company needs to be structured and what leaders of the company need to pay attention to.

So like, for example, you did say, That in terms of the traditional hierarchy, which is more like a pyramid, right? It’s maybe like a tree or like a net where everyone’s somewhat equal and maybe a part of different nets and communities. Like I also hear often the word community, like people say that, you know, it is all about a community.

It means that employees within the company need to feel that they belong to a community. You have to be a part of the community as a company. You have to contribute to the community, which is. Social work, all of that creates this stability and transition. Make it a bit more easier. And also the other thing, which I have been hearing a lot, especially about leadership and business, it’s no longer like an individual star performance culture.

It’s a group work. So like it, it used to be more that he is one person who is a superstar and everyone kind of like an alkaline around supporting this superstar. As you rightfully just said earlier. People don’t want to do it anymore. Everyone kind of wants to be a superstar and recognized for their gifts, however big or small they are.

So it’s about teamwork. Why, what, why, what do you say about it?

Roshan Thiran: yeah. No, no, it’s absolutely that. And the reality is, everybody, you know, you said a lot of right things, right? You said everybody wants to be recognized. So how do you recognize everyone? Um, you can only do it through technology, right? I mean, you can only use it when, when, when technology like happily and, and BIW, uh, in maker and stuff.

I mean, there’s different technologies out there, right? Um, but, but these are technologies that allow recognition to happen by a manager, by peers, uh, on a, on a, on a daily basis, right? Cause it’s not one person in HR or something trying to recognize is everybody recognizing each other. So technology enables that to happen.

You know, everybody wants, um, uh, sort of a pat in the back. Everybody wants, uh, motivation. Everybody wants, uh, and, and, and how do you give that in a personalized way? Because each of us require different sort of, you know, we may be having health issues. Another one may just be frustrated with, uh, uh, with the issue in the company.

The other one is having a peer, peer argument. Another one is having an argument with the boss, you know, and, and firstly, if you don’t don’t know what’s happening. And remember, if you have a hundred people working for you, you’ve got hundreds and thousands of issues and there’s no way to find out what these issues are unless you leverage technology, right?

So, so again, everybody wants personalization, but the companies is easier to do standardization. But to me, you technology allows standardization and personalization. Uh, technology allows globalization and localization technology allows you to be strategic and also operational, right? And and and that’s what the requirement of the world is the world is saying I want You to be personalized to me, but I also want standard standardization.

I want to be fair. I want equity. And if you are a human being, like, how can I standardize? I mean, if you’re, imagine you’re a HR person, Oh, I want you to take care of employees, wellbeing, but also take care of the business. I’m like, which one first business or employee, both, both. Uh, but, but there’s the way to do that is through technology.

Right. Um, and, and you, you, you, and, and so the guy like, like the, you know, Tarif, uh, who, who set up happily. Right. Um, you know, these guys figured out that, Hey, I can be personalized and Uh, and also standardized. I can be global and local and, and I developed, let me develop a technology to solve that problem.

Right. And so that’s why happily or budaya is such a powerful, uh, tool, right. Uh, because it enables you to do both. Right. Uh, and, and, and to me, that’s what I said, you know, if you understand what the issues that people are facing, you’re able to find what the right. Uh, pain points are and solve that pain point.

And if you can solve the pain point, you’re able to then build an income stream. That’s going to be lasting for a long time. Right. I mean, at least, at least for that time where that need, uh, becomes, uh, is evident, right. And then you figure out what’s another need. And then you jump to the other need when, when times are changing.

Right. Um, so, yeah, I mean, to me, to me, you, you hit on recognition, um, rewards, uh, people want to be rewarded. Uh, for the little that they do. So how do we make sure every single thing, there’s some reward? And, and, you know, again, what, what tariff and what happily guys, this clever, right? They give you 10 points for little, little things.

And then, you know, uh, after you get X number of points, 50 you can go to Shopee, you can go to Lazada, you can, you can get stuff, right? Um, so on a daily, monthly basis, you do more, you get more points. I mean, so there’s, there’s, there’s ways to do that. People want self fulfillment. Um, they want, they want, um, to feel that what they’re doing is meaningful.

So, you know, many companies will say, Oh, we are a purpose driven company, but that’s just motherhood statements, right? So how do you then connect with initiatives? Those tools to, it’s not just, um, it’s not just about going to do what CSR once in a month. It’s about how do you, you know, work with technology to say, Hey, here’s all the volunteer opportunities in the, in, in our region, uh, pick one.

I like all folks. I like, uh, children. I like beach cleaning. I like environment. Okay. You pick what you want, but we recognize what you’re doing outside of work. Um, and then we say here are the top volunteers of the month and people like that. Wow. I feel great You know, uh, you know, and that’s that’s things like mad for good and and and technology like that So, I mean it already exists and then people people want to have a so so they get a sense of fulfillment Then you said they want a sense of community And how do you organize things and we do that all the time with our employees, right?

We have our current employees and our Ex employees, uh, you know, every couple of months we have sports days, we have fun days, we have movie nights and so on. And we bring our ex employees who may be in other companies, right? But it doesn’t matter, right? So we’re still part of, we always say once a Lironger, always a Lironger, right?

So we’re saying, Hey, you’re part of the community forever. Once you join us a couple of months, you’re stuck in our community and they love it, right? Even their own new companies doesn’t have community. And many times when we have jobs, they want to come back, right? Uh, because you have to, but, but that’s easy to do, right?

It’s not complex to do, but, but everything you said is spot on, right? Um, but that’s what the new organization does. They understand the need for recognition, for reward, uh, for engagement, uh, for fulfillment, for purpose, for meaning, uh, for connectedness. You know, and in relationship, right? When you understand all that, then you start to build a structure that enables that to happen and you can only do, and you can only do it to technology.

I mean, that’s the, and, and, and the guys are doing it, the pioneers, like happily and Budaya and, and Daymaker with, with, uh, VAW, and I think, you know, Omar, right? I mean, his company does some of that stuff, but I mean, the guys are pioneering this, those guys are going to be far ahead of the curve, right?

Because. They’re doing stuff that they’re solving a problem that everybody wants to be solved, but they don’t understand how to articulate the problem in a way that makes sense. 

 Entrepreneurship solves problems. Entrepreneurship actually heals, uh, uh, you know, entrepreneur comes in and say, here’s a problem of this community. Let me heal you by solving that problem.

 So to me, I’m a big proponent of supporting social enterprises, supporting entrepreneurs that are saying, Hey, I really want to solve problems because it’s actually enabling the community to thrive when they do that.

Yana Fry: I hear often from business owners, That, uh, it, when it comes to talent, so it’s talent acquisition, which you said, um, talent engagement, talent retention, and then we. Let’s say usually it is a person who probably would be at least above 40 on average if we talk about more traditional companies who would be running a company.

And many people come in their 20s, very early 30s, which is an entirely different generation and brought up in a very different way. And they are demanding much more everything around fulfillment and recognition and wellness and well being and gym passes and yoga sessions, you know, and therapy sessions and, and everything.

But since we are talking here from a leader perspective, like founder or CEO of the company, what is your personal experience working with the younger generation in terms of getting the most out of them so that they perform to their highest ability and that they stay really happy as employees?

Roshan Thiran: I think, I think it’s, it’s about conversation, right? So, I mean, if you can help them understand, you Manslow had a pyramid. And it starts with security, basic needs, and then it goes up all the way to fulfillment on purpose, right? So what happened is that, you know, when I was growing up, you know, I got my first job in GE, or my second job in GE, and, you know, they paid me well, they gave me a laptop, wow, it was great, because you got your basic needs fulfilled, and you know, you got a bit of extra, wow, a cool laptop in the early 90s, right?

Nobody has a laptop, you got a laptop, wow, okay, that’s cool, I’m done! Best company in the world, I love it to death, right? I’m gonna, you You know, throw every single hour I can to help this company, you know, thrive. You know, the next generation grows up, you know, they get, they get all the basic needs, they have clothes, they have money, you know, especially live in Singapore.

Right. Well, I, I got my credit cards, I got my cars, like, Oh, and then you use, you know, what, so what you’re missing is purpose, right? Meaning. So they come to the market and saying, you know, I want meaning, I want purpose. And that’s why they rarely cry seems to be that, but, but, but, and they come thinking that, Hey, I played second life.

So I know how to run companies. I know how to run cities. I know how to run, you know, I’ve done Sim City. I’ve done, you know, so they come in the mind that virtually I’ve done a lot of things. Um, and so why shouldn’t you pay me, uh, because of all my experience running things virtually? But when you have a conversation with them and say look, uh, here’s my purpose.

Here’s what this organization is trying to do. What’s yours, you know? Oh, I don’t really have one. Okay, let’s, let’s find one and let’s connect it. So help them connect their purpose to our purpose. So that’s the starting point. You, you already will see suddenly there’s a big shift. Right, and even others may say I pay you more.

They’ll say I feel very you know that there’s a there’s there’s a big criteria That’s fulfilled in them, which is which is purpose I think the second one is enabling them to understand that life is a journey of experiences So, how are you accumulating the right experiences? So what do you want to do and most of them will say I don’t know I anything whatever, you know They study psychology, but they’re doing this they study I’ve got a guy, you know who studied medic medicine right medical and so on and he’s doing he’s doing marketing for me now Okay So it’s like, you know But but when you align up their purpose and say I’ll do anything for this company Then the second thing is what you want to achieve in life.

I’m not sure I want to achieve financial security and then they kind of broadly outline. Okay, so how do we get you to this point of financial security? What, what, what, you know, next couple of years, I want this, I want that. So as we start to outline that and say, okay, here’s what I need to be done. Why don’t we work on you accumulating this experience and when you learnt it, let’s figure out how to put you on another experience, another experience.

And when you have that dialogue and say these are the many, if I cannot give you the experience, why don’t you go outside and get that experience? Um, and then hopefully in 10 years time, you will say, I’ve got accumulated all this experience. I think if you have those conversations, they get it. They’re like, Oh yeah, yeah.

You make sense. Uh, you know, because life is anyway about experiencing, you know, the wonders of the world. Right. And how, why not experience it through work? Why not experience it through this? And when you start connecting these dots for them, which they cannot connect, right? Because they’re young, right? I mean, we couldn’t connect dots when we were younger too, right?

So when you start helping them connect dots, they start to be saying, okay, I’m going to listen to you. I’m going to. Uh, follow you, you know, I, I may want you to be my leader. Um, and when that happens, then you’ve got a lot more credibility. The problem is we come in and we say, do this, this is the way. Why?

Because that’s the way it’s done. Uh, that’s how it is. You know, you, you don’t understand banking, banking is like that. Just do it. Right. And they say, no, I think I’ll start my own digital bank. And, and, and they go and start, right. Because we haven’t connected. The purpose, we can align them with, with meaning.

We haven’t aligned them to where we’re going. And if they can, they can appreciate that. I think a lot of things will change. So, I mean, I mean, that’s my quick sort of, uh, answer to how enabling you to engage with younger folks.

Yana Fry: My another slightly tricky question. So here you are. You are the CEO or founder of a company and you have 100, 000 10, 000 employees within the company. So who is there to have this kind of conversation? Who needs to be qualified to actually align? Basically, because we are here talking about aligning each person who comes within the company.

So it means you have to actually physically sit down with this person and have a very deep conversation about their life and their values and where they’re heading within the next 2, years and what are the company values and purpose, you know, it’s time. So, but I also hear from many leaders. They don’t have that much time running around because they somehow have to, you know, they have to raise the capital and they have to satisfy shareholders.

And they need to look at the product development and there are customers there. So who is then in the company, then going to be doing that with people?

Roshan Thiran: Yeah. So, so to me, you know, it’s, it’s, um, it’s, it has to be the line manager. Right. So, I mean, each line manager, I, like I said, I mean, we have more than seven direct reports, you know, it’s, it’s crazy, right. I mean, try to limit it to, uh, I’ve, I’ve seen a guy with like 15, 18, 32. I’m like, that’s crazy. Right. Um, because ultimately if you’re, you, you have line responsibility, the person, you know, you own that, you own that person, you own that conversation.

But I think where, Where it becomes easier is technology, right? So I, you know, I use, um, you know, my organization we subscribe to happily. Um, and we use, so one of the things I get on a daily basis is a dashboard that shows me. You know, who’s talking to who I’ve got a relationship metrics. I’ve got a, uh, I know on a, on a daily basis, uh, who’s angry with who, uh, you know, who’s fighting, who’s, uh, who’s upset with the boss, um, you know, where there’s, uh, health issues, where there’s a, uh, overwork issues and so on, because people self report and when they report, they get, they get, uh, they get, uh, points, right?

So everyone wants to tell the story. And after a while. If you’re authentic, you know, with the response back, knowing that information, people are happy to give more, right? Because they realize that, you know, if I’m, I’m, uh, I’m going through a breakdown and mental health issues, the company’s coming side by side to help me, not to push me out, right?

Um, so they want to share more and they want to do more. So to me, what we do is I actually provide my line managers on a daily basis, an email. Summary and says, Hey, here’s what’s happening in your team. Here’s who’s not talking to you. Here’s who’s having problems. Here’s who’s having health issues. And here’s two employees that may potentially be leaving you in the next six months or three months, you know?

So when you, when you do that on a daily basis, weekly basis, and then on a monthly basis, you give them strategies, how you deal with these people in your team and so forth, and this is automated, right? So I get AI to, to do that for me, but the conversation itself has to be the line manager, right? Um, but what I do is I do all the work for them, right?

Because they don’t want to sit down there two hours to, because it takes two hours to dig out a lot of this information, three hours. I don’t have the time. So use technology to get some information. Once you get the information, build on the information and say, what can we do? How can we help you? And so on.

And so to me, this is the marrying of technology and time and, and, and, and humanity, right? The human centricity together with technology is very powerful. Human centricity alone takes a lot of time. Technology alone is useless, you know, there’s no connection, but the marrying of these two is where, you know, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll be very successful.

Yana Fry: I absolutely love it. It has been a great conversation. I’m having just the final question for today, Roshan. For 2024, since this is the time that we are talking, for you, for Lideranomics, um, what are you looking forward to this year?

Roshan Thiran: Yeah, so I mean for LibraMix, one of the things that we want to do is, um, I want to Create a structure that works. I mean, the last couple of years we’ve experimented with structure. So, you know, we’re, we’re kind of figuring it out and, you know, we kind of got back to a point where I think the business is stable.

We have, uh, maybe 10 to 15 different business units. We do cybersecurity, we do learning and development, uh, coaching, talent development, uh, but we also do space technology. I mean, uh, we’ve got, uh, movies we make, we have a production company that. That creates a learning movies. Uh, so there’s a whole bunch of things.

So each company is run by different people. So for me, you know, structurally, how do you manage, uh, you know, the 10 to 12 different, uh, CEOs and, and their organizations. Um, but I’m, I’m, you know, for me, my, my, you know, whenever the, to me personally, it’s about, you know, continuing to find the gaps. Um, you know, where there’s problems, finding the right interpreter to solve that problem and being part of the bigger Lee Romnick’s family and ecosystem.

So, you know, we’re still playing that same game. You know, how do we find problems? How do we solve the problems that are meaningful to the community and enable enable human thriving to happen, right? 

Yana Fry: And for you personally, what are you looking forward to this year?

Roshan Thiran: Yeah, so I want to Get back my shows. You know, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, you know, the last I wanna do my Tech Talk Friday, I wanna do my Wellness Wednesday, I wanna get back to producing content. I used to write quite a lot. Um, you know, so I wanna do, do a bit more to finish up my books. I’m, I’m writing a book on, uh, on, um, uh, artists, uh, painters and, uh, and, and what, what we can learn from leadership from, you know, the Van Gogh and the Reynolds and all these other guys.

Um, so I wanna finish that and, uh, you know, and, and I wanna see, you know, uh, Leros really, uh, start to. Play a global role, you know, not, you know, we’re in India, we’re in Thailand, you know, really starting to look at the, the, the markets in Europe and, and, and elsewhere and how we can, uh, start to, uh, to embed a human community and human connection, uh, as part of the DNA of, uh, of a company and an organization.

Yana Fry: Thank you so much for joining us today. I think it was absolutely phenomenal conversation. I definitely learned a lot just having this dialogue with you and I will go and check out some of those apps. I didn’t even know they exist actually, so I’m going to go check them out and also recommend it to my friends and clients, you know, who run businesses, but absolutely, as you said, humans alone to slow Technology alone, useless.

So you have to combine the two. So thank you for coming today and sharing so generously all your insights. And of course, for everyone who wants to connect with Roshan, please check in the description in the episode show notes, we will include all the links, how you can connect with him, learn more about the company and on behalf of timeless teachings, I would love to.

To ask you, if you love this interview, absolutely share it with your friend and subscribe to us on social media. And just most importantly, listen to our next episode, have the most incredible two weeks.

Our Guest: Roshan Thiran

For the past 16 years, Roshan Thiran has been leading a committed team in building the Leaderonomics of companies – numerous social enterprises dedicated to solving key challenges and issues in developing nations. From access to education to leadership capacity development, fighting cyber-crime, bringing space technology to developing nations, to developing transformative technology to enable the future of work, they are innovating, solving problems, and enabling scale in rural and developing nations.